To think that 16% pay inequality between the sexes isn't necessarily a problem....

[Bananabread123]

.... so long as:

1. men and women are paid equivalent amounts where there is parity of responsibility, experience and competence

2. affordable childcare is available

3. men and women are equally able to take career breaks for the purpose of child rearing, and that cultural barriers inhibiting this are removed

4. there is equality of access to money and spending decisions for women in households where the man is the main breadwinner (and vice versa)

5. Barriers that prevent or dissuade women from working in high paid professions are removed.

Why do I say this?... because in my experience women, on average, tend to want to lead on child rearing, and that this is a biological tendency that exists over and above any cultural norms. Clearly it will be different for every couple, but I'm talking about norms here. Not all, but many women want to take time off after their babies. And many (not all) women embrace the flexibility of part time work when children are young. And if that being the case, they will have less experience than their male counterparts, and it follows they should expect to be paid less on average.

So...if we could be sure that the pay gap was the result of female choice only and nothing to do with systemic inequalities, it wouldn't be an issue?

Well, duh.

It seems impossible to have a nuanced discussion. Unless you unquestioningly follow 'accepted doctrine', you're ridiculed. Seriously, this 'liberal' arrogance is feeding the monster that spawned Brexit and Trump.

As pp have mentioned, none of your points addresses the discrimination suffered by women because they might get pregnant, not that suffered because they do.

Plus there's nothing there about all the "wife-work" women tend to do outside of paid work or child rearing. Time spent doing that which could be spent on their career.

You would have a point, if 1-5 were true. But they aren't, so you don't.

Women, on average, tend to want to lead on child rearing, and that this is a biological tendency that exists over and above any cultural norms

How inconvenient that women, rather than men, tend to become pregnant and breastfeed.

I'm not sure I understand

Not being argumentative I just don't understand what you mean ?

Surely if you work in the same job you should be paid the same whether male or female . We certainly all are were I work . It is irrelevant wether at some point someone may have to go on maternity leave / drop to part time etc

Whenever people start calling for a 'nuanced discussion' I usually switch off, because they usually mean a discussion of the points they believe are correct and disregard of points that contradict their preconceived ideas.

More women choose to stay at home because it wouldn't be worth their while to work as they earn less than men..

Yep nuanced discussions equal pile of bloody claptrap to me

This thread has not dissuaded me of that

People who can't do nuanced are wrong because I say so. Rightio.

Why is this so sexist? It's that kind of superior sneering dismissal of anything that doesn't fit with liberal dogma

Thats where you lost your arguement, that and stating a pay gap is acceptable when equality in other areas is achieved..
If men and women have equal time off for childcare why is a pay gap acceptable?

How inconvenient that women, rather than men, tend to become pregnant and breastfeed.

That's just how it is! We should mitigate against that by providing affordable childcare and advocating for both partners in relationships have equal access to money irrespective of individual earnings.

No. We should mitigate against that by making sure uterus owners are not disadvantaged by their physiology.

Interesting!

Women are more able than men because* they have children - their skills are broadened in the basis of multi tasking educating scheduling budgeting etc - all excellent work based skills needed!

These skills have value - only its not a recognised value -

Ok Iv re read and tried to understand ...

So women just by the very fact that they are women should be paid less in case they happen to get pregnant and happen go part time ?

Working full time over part time means someone is more experienced and conpetent in the same role ? I disagree. But, How would you measure that exactly ??? Equally how would you measure that " women have equal access to finances in the home " should that be asked at the interview stage ? " yeh he's pretty generous my old man so put me on the 16 % lower wage I don't really need the extra "

Give me strength

Who pays for the more afordable child care? Will the people providing the child care be paid high end wages to do so?

If men and women have equal time off for childcare why is a pay gap acceptable?

It's not... in a hypothetical world where this was the case, they'd be no case for a pay gap. But in my experience mothers, rather than fathers are more likely to choose, often very willingly, to lead on child rearing. Biology drives this. Yes, culture drives this too in tandem with biology, but you can't dismiss the biological tendency for mothers to tend, on average, to lead on child rearing. This impairs their earning power. But as long as this is a willing choice, that's ok if there are the safeguards I mentioned are put in place.

But why can they still not be paid the same per hour for the time they are at work if they choose to work part time in order to do more of the child rearing ??

"Lead on child rearing" - do you mean, be pregnant and breastfeed? Is that it?

It seems unreasonable to me to make claims about why women leave work or go part time in the current totally unequal society.

And also your "safeguards" are completely ridiculous and unmanageable . How can an employer ensure that a woman has equal access to family finances at home

Ridiculous . What might just be easier is that men and women are paid the same for the same job.

You missed off this list pay, conditions, promotion and responsibilities for part time workers.

Much of why women are paid less is because of inequality of treatment of full and part time workers.

I agree with you that the pay gap should narrow but will never close.

I agree that we need decent childcare and financial protection for primary carers in relationships.

But why can they still not be paid the same per hour for the time they are at work if they choose to work part time in order to do more of the child rearing??

They should... but a hypothetical mother who chooses to take 3 years away from work, and then return part-time, wouldn't have garnered as much experience as a hypothetical equally capable man who had worked full time over the period...
Ensbling him to get a better paid job as a result.

So you are in favour of women being paid less than men, you just want to argue about exactly how much less we are worth?