To think that 16% pay inequality between the sexes isn't necessarily a problem....

[Bananabread123]

.... so long as:

1. men and women are paid equivalent amounts where there is parity of responsibility, experience and competence

2. affordable childcare is available

3. men and women are equally able to take career breaks for the purpose of child rearing, and that cultural barriers inhibiting this are removed

4. there is equality of access to money and spending decisions for women in households where the man is the main breadwinner (and vice versa)

5. Barriers that prevent or dissuade women from working in high paid professions are removed.

Why do I say this?... because in my experience women, on average, tend to want to lead on child rearing, and that this is a biological tendency that exists over and above any cultural norms. Clearly it will be different for every couple, but I'm talking about norms here. Not all, but many women want to take time off after their babies. And many (not all) women embrace the flexibility of part time work when children are young. And if that being the case, they will have less experience than their male counterparts, and it follows they should expect to be paid less on average.

Men and women in the senior roles are there because they have to right level of experience for that role. It doesn't matter whether the woman worked p/t for 5 years or the man took 2 years off to go travelling, they both have the required level of experience. In general, in the more senior roles, the men will get paid more. The possible 'extra' 2 years of experience makes little difference at this level, and certainly doesn't impact their ability to do the job. If you want some stats check the pay rates for male and female headteachers.

What you have not considered are the wider economic and social factors that lead to the pay gap-these need to be addressed.
-Traditionally female dominated labour under paid in comparison to similarly skilled male dominated labour

• lack of female representation at senior management level due to our inability to accommodate flexible working at this level as well as the glass ceiling
• once a skilled labour force becomes more female dominated the pay actually goes down!
• lack of female representation in STEM areas partly because girls are told in lots of ways that these subjects are not for them. Those who do get degrees in these areas tend to not stay because they feel uncomfortable in the male dominated working culture.
• the general lack of support and ingrained view that maternity leave is a personal choice and that women are lucky to have pay through this period. Continual focus on how damaging this is to the workplace. Early years childcare by a loving parent should be seen as part of the infrastructure of a healthy society and the cost of this, like roads, healthcare, education, should not be seen as personal 'choice'.

Oh yes- I also forgot- that all aspects of child rearing, from feeding, clothing, discipline, emotional support, taking to doctors, buying clothes for, arranging play dates, choosing schools, EVERY single aspect is seen as the mother's responsibilty by HCPs, teachers, the media, other men, other women etc. The father may 'help' but honestly, when was the last time you saw a dirty child, or a child out past a normal bedtime, or a badly behaved child, and thought 'where's the father?'
This pressure on women to be responsible for all of this makes full time work very difficult.

What you have not considered are the wider economic and social factors that lead to the pay gap-these need to be addressed.

I agree... All this needs to happen.

How can you possibly disentangle this from the influence of an unequal society/culture?

Equally, how can you possibly say that mothers being the lead care-giver is entirely down to culture/society.

I echo another poster, how dare you tell women they are worth less

Where have I said or implied this? thr current situation disadvantages women and needs changing... but changing to 'pay fairness' not 'pay equality' that doesn't reflect the tendency of more mothers than fathers to make an active choice to take a career break. To assume this choice is purely a result of a patriarchal society and nothing at all to do with biology cannot be justified imo.

I can't, that's the point, I'm not trying to. You are trying to claim a biological driver that you have no ability to prove (or disprove).

You are also arguing that because women have to be pregnant and breastfeed, that should mean they are paid less than men. You are further arguing that because of this supposed biological drive to look after children, that is another reason why they should be paid less. You are giving zero value and worth to the unavoidable role of women being pregnant and breastfeeding.

Because op your point is sexist and outdated. It's the same old misogynistic crap dressed up as 'pay fairness'

Give over for fucks sake and stop being so fucking offensive

sI agree that we should be going for pay fairness rather than equal pay, and indeed the Fawcett society presses the same solutions that you have pushed OP.

I have seen some people on threads on here push for the solution that men and women should do equal amounts of childcare and that will resolve most of the gender pay gap. I've seen it written on here that SAHMs and part time workers are letting other women down because they leave careers and make employing women more risky.

There are multiple reasons why women end up on lower wages than men, and those things are wrong. It is wrong that part time jobs often have few promotion opportunities and that better jobs are not available for job share so they could be part time. It's wrong that so many girls are given poor career advice and enter jobs below their ability level. Many of the problems can be eradicated by feminist action.

But many women want to be primary carers. I want to be treated fairly when it comes to pay and job opportunities. I don't want to be disrespected for having been a SAHM. I want to be offered job opportunities that are equivalent to a person with the same experience and ability as myself. What I don't expect is to get paid the same as the person of my age who was worked consistently for twenty years and so has much more experience.

The approach that it will be resolved by men doing half the childcare is damaging to me, because many people with that belief then use it as an excuse to treat me as some kind of loser dinosaur letting the side down who doesn't really deserve opportunities because I've been a SAHM. A quarter of the cleaners employed by my local authority are graduates - older women.

I actually think it was easier for SAHMs of my mum's generation to get decent jobs after being SAHMs because having been a SAHM wasn't seen as being something stupid unambitious women did.

So yes, fair treatment. I want to be treated fairly. I don't want to be treated as if me being a SAHM and then working part time makes me a societal problem in someone else's desire to close the pay gap completely.

Speaknowords, I would love employers to recognise that being pregnant and breastfeeding is equivalent when someone applies for a job as experience in that job. I was pregnant or breastfeeding for about ten years.

I think it is highly unlikely to happen.

Equally, how can you possibly say that mothers being the lead care-giver is entirely down to culture/society.

If you don't understand that "lead caregiver" is an entirely cultural and social concept, and not a biological one, I really don't know what to say to you.

You are trying to define cultural ideas as biologically determined and then using that invented biological determinism to justify women's work being worth less than men's.

It's sexism 101.

I feel like I'm having a conversation from the 80s.

Women who never leave their jobs are being discriminated against because their single combined year of maternity leave supposedly makes them "less experienced" over an entire career.

It's actually pretty shit for a SAHM to try to tell women who didn't stop working that they are not allowed to demand equality but only "fairness" (as defined by whom?).

I will defend anyone's right to live a life that involves decades out of the workplace and cone back to work and be well treated and paid for the work they do.

But don't you DARE tell me that I can't demand equal pay for the majority of women who work for most of their adult lives.

almond

Very well put... being a SAHM is something many, many mums choose to do. Those that imply there's an issue with wanting to be a SAHM (I.e. Patriarchal society has brainwashed you into believing you want to do it) are undermining women's choices...

And yes, if you've been a SAHM for 10 years it is ridiculous to think you should come back into work on the same pay grade as a man or woman who hasn't.

If you don't understand that "lead caregiver" is an entirely cultural and social concept

No i dont accept this... why should I when evidence points the other way.... or are all SAHMs slaves to the patriarchal culture. Very insulting to SAHMs.

It's actually pretty shit for a SAHM to try to tell women who didn't stop working that they are not allowed to demand equality but only "fairness" (as defined by whom?).

I'm not saying this for a moment. Pay fairness for a woman who hasn't given up work is pay equality with a man who similarly hasn't had a career break. In this case fairness = equality.

Can you point me in the direction of all this evudence that points to "lead caregiver" being a biological function?

Which part of my anatomy means that I am more suited to takung time off work when a child vomits?

.. or are all SAHMs slaves to the patriarchal culture

You need to decide whether people being influenced by the culture in which they live makes them "slaves", because if it does, then your argument is very insulting to ALL women.

It seems like your argument is that it's fine to say that people don't make entirely free choices. Unless you are msking a feminist argument, in which case you are insulting SAHMs.

Op is your point that targeting the average gap is not helpful. What we should be doing is addressing the five causes of the gap you highlight in your post. - I think I agree with you

drwitch. Exactly....

To do otherwise creates impossible and unrealistc expectations that either SAHMs who returns after a career break should be paid as thought they had the experience of someone who hadn't taken a break, or that families should split child rearing 50:50.

We should focus on the problem that actually faces us, and not let that be subverted by a feminist agenda that implies that the tendency for women to be SAHMs or part time workers is all the result of patriarchal oppression, whether or not that is felt consciously by the mums affected.

To emphasise again... to those mums who want to get straight back to work, i agree, your pay shouldn't be disadvantaged... a short maternity break shouldn't impact on your pay and we should fight the sexism that leads to this.

Can you point me in the direction of all this evudence that points to "lead caregiver" being a biological function?

Just talk to the mums at the school gate... how many of them wish it were their DPs doing it instead while they were full time. Some will I'm sure... but a great many won't!

You're kidding right? That's your evidence?

Yes, bad feminism and its agenda of equal pay and women's labour not being exoloited.

All we need to do is ask women at the school gate in a middle class school in England what they want and do that.

Then everything will be fair.

And men will still have most of the power and money, which is their biological role as proven by science.

I'm astounded by the comments of the OP of this thread. Is it really 2016?

I personally would never be a SAHM. I know my strengths and they are definitely outside of the home - I don't think it'd make me a bad mum either. I'd still be there for baby, but I'd go to work too & earn money & so provide for my baby in another way.

My mum has had three children, the oldest being myself, and has never been a SAHM. She's a successful professional and also a loving, supportive and altogether wonderful mum. Nonetheless when I was born it was her who put her career on hold despite the fact at that point she earnt more than my father. She now agrees it just "happened", even though my dad is very involved too (as he should be), just seemed to be unthinking. It's frustrating not much seems to have changed in 16 years (though I have read increasing numbers of fathers are becoming primary caregivers to their children and SAHDs are on the increase).