To think that 16% pay inequality between the sexes isn't necessarily a problem....

[Bananabread123]

.... so long as:

1. men and women are paid equivalent amounts where there is parity of responsibility, experience and competence

2. affordable childcare is available

3. men and women are equally able to take career breaks for the purpose of child rearing, and that cultural barriers inhibiting this are removed

4. there is equality of access to money and spending decisions for women in households where the man is the main breadwinner (and vice versa)

5. Barriers that prevent or dissuade women from working in high paid professions are removed.

Why do I say this?... because in my experience women, on average, tend to want to lead on child rearing, and that this is a biological tendency that exists over and above any cultural norms. Clearly it will be different for every couple, but I'm talking about norms here. Not all, but many women want to take time off after their babies. And many (not all) women embrace the flexibility of part time work when children are young. And if that being the case, they will have less experience than their male counterparts, and it follows they should expect to be paid less on average.

I will bite. It is hard on a team when some one is off over multiple pregnancies. The mother doesn't have to be the person who takes the year off, but they generally are.

I don't think the glass ceiling should exist, but if someone is off for extended time (esp for the third time) then they probably don't have the same skills/experience as a man or woman who has been there all the time.

banana but they would have more experience than someone just starting in the job who would be on the same salary as everyone else assuming it wasn't a lower trainee position .

For example where I work I have X job with Y salary. The job is advertised when a position comes up and people apply they have relevant qualifications and experience but tend to learn the specifics of the job as they go along . They still get paid y salary upon starting the job . I having being there a few years also get y salary . Colleague coming back of a years maternity leave at part time hours ( with many more years of experience than both myself and new person ) will also get y salary but re adjusted to the hours she actually works.

What your suggesting is that basically women should be punished for having children and also that all women will have children .

Pinkandblue, shared parental leave is really quite new, so how could men have taken a year off prior to this?

Isn't almost all of the pay gap down to the lower wages of mothers, and increases greatly after women's prime reproductive years?

I don't get your example Duck. Most people's wages increase each year.

Women take a year or two off from careers by resigning, and then going back later. Presumably fathers could do the same.

But pinkandblue was talking about people taking leave not resigning, and then returning to the same team.

So you are in favour of women being paid less than men, you just want to argue about exactly how much less we are worth?

No! That's not what I'm saying!!!! A man and woman who are equally competent and experienced should be paid equally.

Because she's talking about a pregnant woman and saying they don't have to be the one to take a year off.

That's true. Unless all the family work in the same team, the father or a grandparent could resign to look after the baby. Or the mother could go back to work as soon as she is legally able and get paid childcare.

Yes we get inflationary pay rises but they are all the same . Perhaps my job is a bad example we don't get individual pay rises . We all do the same job ( in my department ) we all get paid the same and whatever Inflationary (sometimes more ) pay rise is agreed by the directors we all get

Women take a year or two off from careers by resigning, and then going back later. Presumably fathers could do the same.

Yes they could... and I believe we should remove the cultural barriers that prevent that from happening more. My point was that even if this happened, mothers would still probably tend on average to lead on child rearing due to their biologically driven maternal instincts.

I think what you are saying is Bananabread...

1. Men and women with the same experience and competency should be paid equally.
2. Unnecessary barriers to women being equally competent and experienced should be removed.
3. A safety net should be in place for women who take on primary caring responsibilities.

But your not talking about a pay gap for mothers ( which I still wouldn't agree with )

Your talking about a pay gap for Women . Woman does not automatically equal mother !!!!!!

I'm not talking about inflation.

I'm talking about incremental pay rises based on how much experience someone has. So on the local authority pay scale I was paid more than a new starter because I had been there longer.

It is important because it retains staff rather than everyone fighting to get into 'management.'

Yes almond and given that I believe mothers are more likely to choose to lead on child rearing, even if cultural barriers were removed, women would on average earn less than men, and that would be ok.

Clumsy duck, we are talking about average wages for women as a group. It doesn't mean wages of mothers and other women would be the same (and indeed they are not).

"Biologically driven maternal instincts" what are these?

I don't think it even has to come down to biological instinct Banana Bread.

Women can get pregnant and men can't, and women in the UK almost never carry a pregnancy to term unless they want a baby.

So women are more likely to have a child around than a man is.

Well yes in that case experience will equal higher pay however op didn't specify any of that just talked about the pay gap genrally and there are plenty of jobs that have a standard salary/ hourly rate with inflationary pay rises only !

Clumsy Duck, I'm sorry but I am not understanding your posts.

When people talk about the pay gap I am assuming that they are referring to the average hourly pay of all women as a group compared to all men as a group.

While you may work in a job where more experienced people do not get paid more, very many men and women do, and that contributes to the pay gap.

No but op keeps stating "women's biological urge to do more child rearing " while explaining her reasons for the pay gap for women being ok . So how does this work for non mothers is she is talking about women on the whole ?

I earn less because I work part time and so get the same salary as those I work with but pro rata . I'm happy with this because I choose to work part time . That is not the same as if i earnt less because all the women I worked with earnt less than the men based on the fact that we might have babies . Which is what the op seems to be suggesting

The OP never said that.

It is the average wage of all women, not that every individual woman gets paid less.

We have a wage gap now and some women earn far more than some men.

Ok Iv re read it and I have misunderstood what she meant I think I thought she meant genrally in a comparable position that it would be OK to pay a woman less because she would be more likely to have a baby etc

In my defence it's very late

It's okay! Don't be sad!

Well at least I had a good rant on the matter even if I missed the point

Bed time !!

You reach a certain point in your career where some time off means jack. I have been working on a professional career for 20 years. I have had 1.5 years off in ML over the course of that time. My colleagues at a similar stage in the game, with no time off are not significantly more experienced simply on the basis of time off, it does not work like that. Ability to do the job, IQ, aptitude and lots of other differences feed into a person's level of experience. A lot of the problem is that it is so culturally engrained that men will be better at jobs (see Donald Trump vs Hillary Clinton) and deserve higher remuneration that the pay gap does not come down to experience.