Not to want to give my sister a penny...?

[MargaretElsie]

I have a sister who is five years younger than me.
She is shocking with money. Despite earning around £40k is always in the red, has borrowed (and not paid back) money off our mum, grandparents and brother along with my dad - this comes to over £15000, over a long period of time. During the time I have been living near her, she has had over seven new cars, lots of holidays and mini breaks and frequently 'treats' herself (expensive to maintain hairstyles, new outfits, beauty treatments etc.) Despite the impression I am probably giving, she is actually great in most ways but awful with money. Nobody can discuss it with her without tears and shouting and inevitable door slamming so it's now pretty much ignored.

She lives in a small rented house with her DH and twins (her credit rating is such than she was turned down for a mortgage on a £100k house and her husband is bankrupt) after being evicted from a large one she could not afford and is very resentful of the fact that me and DH have managed to buy two houses with the money we made from selling up in London.

We also (we moved back to Yorkshire) have quite a lot in the bank which we plan to use for any work we may need to do on the places we buy or just simply to keep in an account as a backup. My sister knows what we sold our house for, and what we have bought the two subsequent one's with and so know's roughly what we have in the bank.

Now she is dropping more and more hints about deposits and how they 'will never own our own home.' She appears to think that the house buying system is stacked against her rather than she is in the position she is in due to her awful spending (she is now 40, but has been like this ever since she turned 18.)

I don't want to get into a proper discussion with her about it as it will end in high drama (otherwise talking about it would sound the most sensible approach) but I do not think that she deserves yet another helping hand, even if we do have plenty of money in the bank (for the first time ever, I might add!)

She has had plenty of help, and never learns from her previous mistakes. She also earns enough, even without including her DH who also works albeit for less money, to surely be able to live well but also save for the future. I also think that she needs to learn herself and take responsibility.

AIBU?

If it were my sisiter I would help her.

If the house they want to buy is £100000 they would only need about £15,000 to get going. So I'd offer to give her half that if she saved the other half. So it's in her interest to get her act together with money and to save some. If she doesn't learn lessons and save, then you don't have to give her anything.

I should add, my sister is quite similar and I have given money to her in the past, as has my Dad and brother.

She sounds exactly like my sister. Who also has twins! I have been subbing her all my life. My own fault really. I have recently started saying no but it's hard.

Well yes you have been lucky, but that still doesn't make your sister entitled to any of it. Anyway, it's not just your money - it's your DH's and DCs'. Why should you pour your cash into a bottomless pit when it could be a great foundation for your kids' futures?

For those suggesting OP must've been in some way hard saving, prudent or in any way financially virtuous to be in the position she's in, not at all. A person could've bought a couple of studio flats on 125% interest only mortgages in 2005, spunked all their money on shoes and holidays, done absolutely nothing to upkeep the properties and still have enough left over to buy a place in the north after selling them a decade later. Hence the casino analogy. And of course it wouldn't have been earned. It would simply have been right place, right time. I'm not saying OP did do this btw, simply that she could have.

With all that said, yes clearly still a bad idea to give money. It would just be helping her dig herself a bigger hole. As a pp said, you'd worry they'd just end up repossessed.

I know someone who has been constantly bailed out financially by family. She's never learnt how to manage by herself and it's infuriating to hear about it, though I do bite my tongue and don't say what I really think.

YANBU to refuse to give your sister money.

Op I don't think you sound rather pleased with yourself either. Those of you that are saying op is coming across a smug, the op posted about her own financial situation to show why her sister thinks that she's good for a handout.

Dhs (large) family are grabby around money, they seem to think that as we are comfortably off they are entitled to a share, they don't get that dh has worked his bollocks off and I have sacrificed a hell of alot for the last 20+ years to get where we are.
Also dbil came into a large amount of money and the requests and demands became unbelievable, when dbil refused their request, a rumour went round that he gave a very large sum of money to dh and didn't share it with the rest of them. (£1m....I wish!!)
We also had to keep quiet about dhs redundancy payout, the fact that he had got it and the amount. If they'd have found out they would be queuing up with their hands out!
As a result the fallout of the imaginary £1m has been laughable because it simply isn't true. This is only the fine outline of what his family are like, if I were to go into detail it would read like an episode of Jeremy Kyle!

Dh used to lend money here and there but most of the time wouldn't be paid back so in the end put a stop to it.

Money and family never end well unless the person can be 100% trusted to pay it back.

Yanbu!

Working hard to be able to pay the mortgage on a London property is rarely easy. I'm amused at those who think the OP has just had a lucky windfall.

It sounds as is financially and emotionally immature. She hasn't learned to manage money....and when the issue is raised, she throws a tantrum, rather than being able/willing to hear and address the truth.

Here you are not talking about £50 to get her to end of the month but thousands and thousands. She has been turned down for a mortgage because she isn't credit worthy and your family have also seen her default on loans to them. If you really want to help her, you need to help her become more money savvy. There are basic money management courses run for people like her and if you are brave and really want to provide long term help, you could direct her to one of those. That said, this isn't likely to go down well with her, by the sound of it. She just wants the money....without the hard discussion.
If you wanted and really might be prepared to get involved, you could say that you would like to help and are willing to think about it,inf she attends some debt/money management courses.....you are willing to help, but only if she addresses her issues with money. If this prompts a temper tantrum, just comment that you were willing to help but she must take responsibility and help herself too.
It's hard, because yes, you can sound sanctimonious and as if you're rubbing her nose in it. However, the brave and long term help to her, isn't just giving the money, but helping her address her issues with money. Most people would decide that option is too hard and not worth the aggro that will come with it. You might decide you can't face the response to such a suggestion - absolutely fair enough and your choice......but really, hard facts with practical help are often the way forward, even if unpopular.

Reminds me of how people with alcoholic relatives often have a hard job of getting them to admit their problem and to go to AA......but that if they can manage that, there is so much more hope for the future.

YANBU. It wouldn't help your sister in the long run, she'd fritter the money somehow and then she'd be asking for another tranche. It may not feel 'fair' to her that you have money in the bank but that comes from the choices you've made about what to spend your money on over the years.

Don't see why people are jumping down the OP's throat, about bragging, or snide remarks about being lucky etc. the topic is about their sister dropping hints about "borrowing" money, facts about the OP's current financial position are important to develop the thread, if the OP came on and gave no details whatsoever people would likely jump down their throat for lack of detail as well.

I'm amused at people who think OP or indeed anyone else must be/have been working hard to pay the mortgage on a London property. I get that if you were just getting on in the past few years, yes. But there are huge numbers of people who bought at pretty low prices before the boom got really ridiculous who simply wouldn't have the high London housing costs.

Maybe if she asks you could say to her you're not comfortable lending her any money while she still owes £15,000. Tell her once this is paid off you would feel more comfortable thinking about lending her the money.

If she pays it back it shows she is more mature (but we know that won't happen).

If she then comes asking for money say you thought about it and you decided to put the money in trusts for your kids for things like driving lessons or uni etc. Either way. Don't give anything to her, follow the motto:

Do not lend more than you can afford to lose.

Fuckwit by name, fuckwit by attitude!

YANBU and i don't think you sound smug just annoyed that you are being made to feel 'lucky' when all you've done is work hard and be savvy.

My sister has lent me money to help buy a house in the past - but I paid it back as soon as I was able to!
The fact that your sister owes substantial amounts of money to family members would make me say no - you wouldn't be loaning the money but making a gift.

And do continue to ignore those who seem to want to piss all over your picnic...

You are in the financial position you are because you you did whatever you did, when you did it. It isn't as if you stabbed someone to take what was theirs.

We all get different slices of the Cake of Life. Being jealous or irritated enough to make snide "You were just lucky and sound smug" comments because someone elses slice is bigger than yours is petty minded and ridiculous!

I never did understand the whole 'you're just lucky' thing when it comes to money.

You and your sister were both brought up in what I assume was the same type of household - she is well off earning 40k (or should be).

You chose to sell up and move to a cheaper area than London and smartly invested that money in property. You have income from those investments coming in, also your job/husbands job. You are living within your means (which may allow you to holiday etc - which is great!).

She is on 40k herself. Her husband is bankrupt and they are both choosing to spend money in a certain way and not save.

You both made choices when it came to money. You were smart, saving and investing and somehow that makes you the bad guy and you're just 'lucky' and somehow now are expected to share that money you worked hard (and smart) for. I never understood that! It drives me crazy.

It's jealousy 7SunshineSeven7

I don't doubt it. DrDreReturns

Avoid money talk with you sister. You did well out of London property she is probably resentful of that and probably thinks you've had 'luck' in a sense you have been lucky to have bought in London and benefitted from the prices rises! So in a sense you've got 2 houses in Yorkshire and she's thinking you haven't 'worked' for them (I'm trying to see it from her perspective) BUT the only way I can think if you do want to help (and I don't know if your post is a cry for help or a stealth boast) then take a charge out on her house for the amount of the deposit. Speak to a solicitor if you do want to help her out and see where you might sit in a list of creditors if she does lose the house. If you don't want to help out then stop talking money with her and just explain you can't help as you've 'Spent' the money on the houses already (as in to do them up). Stop being resentful of the 15k. Up to those she's borrowed it from to ask for it back. YANBU but at the same time you seem a bit gleeful of your fantastic position and if your sisters less so great position. Which isn't a nice attribute

Why "gleeful"? OP has accrued more cash than her DSis. More or less ash than MNers reading the post. More or less than the many millions of other inhabitants of earth.

Luck, good judgement, mix of the two... who cares?

I am not sure that taking the time out to type YANBU but at the same time you seem a bit gleeful of your fantastic position and if your sisters less so great position. Which isn't a nice attribute and other similalrly chiding posts, is a nice attribute either!

I really don't understand why anyone would care!

Don't give her anything. You have your own and, if you have any children, their lives to think about. And as another poster said, bailing people like this out constantly, you think you are helping but you're not, you're enabling the behaviour. Avoid talking about it, or when she drops hints just flat out tell her you are not giving her any money and change the subject swiftly.

Thanks for the replies. And especially for those who realise I am not being 'smug' or 'stealth boasting' or whatever, I certainly am not! The details about our supposedly lucky windfall was due to buying a dilapidated house in a once grotty area, that then jumped up enormously in value over 10 years. And yes, I am very pleased it worked out like that, although living in the state we had to live in for nearly three years while we did the house up wasn't always fun!

I have no intention of lending her money as, other than the fact it would actually end up being more of a gift, I think she needs to save some herself. At the moment they appear to save nothing (at least she is always saying she is brassic a week or so before pay day) which isn't great considering they have a reasonable income. I think she, and I have no idea why, feels hard done by as she doesn't own a house but she still doesn't seem to realise that the money she does spent on other things, such as expensive cars, is the reason why.

I am not tight with money, but I can't bring myself to splash out on major items on a whim (e.g. a 50inch telly so they could watch the Euro's on a bigger screen than their previous, smaller, TV that there was nothing wrong with), I would rather wait until I needed it, or we had extra cash for it. I hope Im making sense!