Not to want to give my sister a penny...?

[MargaretElsie]

I have a sister who is five years younger than me.
She is shocking with money. Despite earning around £40k is always in the red, has borrowed (and not paid back) money off our mum, grandparents and brother along with my dad - this comes to over £15000, over a long period of time. During the time I have been living near her, she has had over seven new cars, lots of holidays and mini breaks and frequently 'treats' herself (expensive to maintain hairstyles, new outfits, beauty treatments etc.) Despite the impression I am probably giving, she is actually great in most ways but awful with money. Nobody can discuss it with her without tears and shouting and inevitable door slamming so it's now pretty much ignored.

She lives in a small rented house with her DH and twins (her credit rating is such than she was turned down for a mortgage on a £100k house and her husband is bankrupt) after being evicted from a large one she could not afford and is very resentful of the fact that me and DH have managed to buy two houses with the money we made from selling up in London.

We also (we moved back to Yorkshire) have quite a lot in the bank which we plan to use for any work we may need to do on the places we buy or just simply to keep in an account as a backup. My sister knows what we sold our house for, and what we have bought the two subsequent one's with and so know's roughly what we have in the bank.

Now she is dropping more and more hints about deposits and how they 'will never own our own home.' She appears to think that the house buying system is stacked against her rather than she is in the position she is in due to her awful spending (she is now 40, but has been like this ever since she turned 18.)

I don't want to get into a proper discussion with her about it as it will end in high drama (otherwise talking about it would sound the most sensible approach) but I do not think that she deserves yet another helping hand, even if we do have plenty of money in the bank (for the first time ever, I might add!)

She has had plenty of help, and never learns from her previous mistakes. She also earns enough, even without including her DH who also works albeit for less money, to surely be able to live well but also save for the future. I also think that she needs to learn herself and take responsibility.

AIBU?

I also agree do not give her the money, simply make sympathising noises and change the subject.

If she asked outright the previous posters suggestion of saying you can't as the money is tied up and earmarked, is a good one. Don't get into a discussion one the real reason why not, simply maintain it's not possible and maybe steer it round to how she can help herself,,saving, whatever.

She knows how much you sold and bought for, but does she know how big your London mortgage was? For all she knows, all the balance paid off the mortgage.

You don't owe her an explanation anyway. If she asks outright just say 'sorry, all our money is spoken for '.

She only has to have a good credit rating for 18 months to qualify for a loan? Tell her to suck it up and stop spending for 18 months.

For those asking how the sister knows how much houses were sold/bought for, everyone has access to the figures via websites like www.net house prices.com. As soon as the sale goes through the Land Registry the figures are published so providing you know the address of the property you can easily look it up.

I like Blu's phrase, "all our money is spoken for". Don't enter into any further explanation. If you want to be nice point her in the direction of CAB or one of the debt advice organisations. I agree with others that banks are unlikely to lend to her even if she has a deposit as she won't meet the affordability criteria. Her spending habits and the situation she has created are her problem to solve, not yours.

Yanbu.
Been there, done that. Went tits up, except I didn't lend a mortgage deposit I bought them a flat outright (with low how prices here making it 15k+10k small repairs and renovation).
I didn't get a penny back. I've loaned smaller amounts of money since and either had 0 back or had 1-4 repayments and then 0.

Do. not. give. her. any. money.
Send her this link and she should be able to see where her money is going. mostly people who 'fritter' theirs don't realise exactly how much they waste until they see it in black and white.
It may be an eye-opener for her. I hope it is.
www.stoozing.com/calculator/soa.php

I wouldn't loan to anyone except Dh. She hasn't really got her head screwed on, financially.

I adore my sister who is really good with money, but even I wouldn't pay for a house for her. That's crossing the line. You are not her parent.

Don't do it! Sometimes those who should love you are the very worst. I have posted a lot about DHs family but my own are just as bad.

My DF was furious when he realised that DH and I had 30 years worth of savings to spend on a house.

I found out that he said (to DSis) "If only I had known".

4 days before we completed he phoned, panicked, their car had died and DM was ill, needed to be taken to hospital appointments... they live in a remote Spanish village... he needed £10K, immediately.

I rang DSis, worried about DM, learned what he had said, that DM had regular, non urgent appts and had had for months and that there was nothing wrong with their car that £500 wouldn't fix.

I rang DF back, told him that we had looked at the numbers and that we had absolutely nothing left after paying the solicitors final bill.

He rang back 6 weeks after we completed... things must have eased by now, could be put it on our CCs?

I have barely managed any kind of conversation with him since!

So no, don't do it. Try and do what I couldn't. Tell your DSis that you won't give her your long days work, commute, lack of family time, overtime, stress, etc.

I have that up my sleeve for next time DF asks: No, DH does not work nights, away from home, in order to keep your life sweet!

Blanche that's awful

Don't give her any money, you are enabling her reckless behaviour if you do.
Also don't share any financial information with her about value of houses, house sales, what you have in the bank. She doesn't need to know your financial situation. If that means withholding financial information from other family members as well so be it.
She is using FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) on you all. Don't fall for it. If she kicks off with high drama, ignore it, don't engage.
Good luck

I wouldn't even consider it. What a joke. Your money is also your husbands does he want to give it to your spendaholic sister and her bankrupt husband? Or would you both rather it went on your children's futures. No one in their right mind would give her a penny.

YANBU, but I can see how the constant hints are putting you in a very difficult situation, if you have her money you know you won't get it back. If she ever asks outright for a "loan" I would be saying (if you were inclined), "ok but we will get a solicitors letter drawn up of how much and how often she has to pay back and get direct debits sorted out. I'm not saying for one minute you should give her any money, just if it all gets too much that there may be a way of ensuring you get your money back.
Horrible situation for you and you have my sympathy.

My first thought was the same as this poster;

Enjoying a massive, unearned property windfall isn't really something to be pleased with yourself about.

You lucked out in the nation's most stacked casino.

Feel lucky, don't feel virtuous.

However, you were obviously more careful with money than your sister to ever get into the position of owning a property in London in the first place.

As your sister hasn't actually asked you for any money, I don't think there's really any need to have a conversation telling her you won't be lending her any. Maybe, if you want to, casually drop into conversation any plans you may have for that money in the future - retirement, more BTL properties etc. - so that she gets the impression that it is not just "available" money.

I completely understand why you mentioned her being turned down for a mortgage - somebody earning £40k should be able to afford a £100k house without too much problem. Especially with a DH who is also earning. Lenders obviously didn't agree - which indicates that her finances must be pretty bad.

I wouldn't lend her any money at this stage (if she were to ask), for a few reasons;

1. You'll never see it again.

1. She earns enough to save a deposit on a £100k house herself. By the time she has a decent deposit saved, her credit record should have repaired sufficiently to secure a mortgage somewhere.

1. If your DSis & BIL have already been evicted for non-payment of rent despite earning good money, I would worry that the house may end up being repossessed anyway. And any money you have put in to it be lost to both of you.

1. The only way to get out of these kind of financial problems is to wake up & learn to save, spend within a strict budget and repay your own debts. Constantly being bailed out teaches you none of this. IMO, by the age of 40, DSis and BIL are old enough to embrace this for themselves.

1. They have a roof over their heads. They don't need help. They will not suffer from living in a small rented house. It's not as if the choice is to lend them money or see them on the streets/in a hostel.

I agree with basketoffreshveg, tbh, that you do sound rather pleased with yourself.

Your sister is clearly not good with money, and you are under no obligation anyway to lend your money to anyone, family or not, but there's a bit of the narrative of 'we've worked hard and sacrificed and she's a feckless, morally deficient renter' here.

Don't forget that you've benefited through no merit of your own from the insanity that is the London property market.

It doesn't matter if you did lend her the money, presumably for a deposit. Banks are really tough now on affordability criteria, her husband was bankrupt and she's already been turned down for a mortgage, say no more. It doesn't matter how much you can stump up for a deposit, the banks don't care unless you can actually afford the mortgage repayments. Unless she actually wants you to buy her a house?

OP I don't think you sounds 'pleased with yourself' and even if you did, since when was it a bad thing to be content with what you've made of life?

You should lend your sister any money unless you're happy to never get it back. If you really want to help though, is there something else you could do? If you have a second house maybe offer it at next-to-no rent for 6 months so they they can catch up a bit with bills?

basketoffreshveg on a £40k salary she should have easily been able to borrow £100k for a mortgage. Your average high street would offer circa £180k on that salary. I think that this the point that the OP is making.

OP don't lend her a penny, she has demonstrated that she hasn't paid back money and if a lender won't lend her money then you shouldn't take the risk either.

If she keeps hinting then change the subject. I can't see her stopping the hints though so maybe crossed words are required?

Maybe a simple statement such as "Dear Sis, I know what you are hinting but DH and I are not in a position to fund you a deposit now or in the future, unless we get a substantial lottery win haha". Say when exiting her company and lightly, not aggressive.

Hi Margaret, carry on avoiding this conversation, at all costs, until the penny drops, or she moves on to someone else.
Don't invent reasons, why you can't. She is not destitute.
Your Sister is a chancer, she has money, but continues to blow it !
Your life and your family's, are now on track. It's taken time, keep it that way. 🌺

No way. I would only help her if they're actually made homeless and even then it would only be assistance to move to a rented place.

I also think that you have made your money fairly, selling up in London an relocating isn't in any way immoral! House prices are way different across the country.

I think that this laughable and probably jealousy speaking, "Massive unearned property windfall" sureley the OP bloody well paid for it, no doubt saving bloody hard for a deposit and paying a high mortgage?

Might sound harsh, but I wouldn't offer a low- or rent free house to such a person. I have heard too many stories of people who have rented to a close relative, thinking to do them a favour by letting them have it more cheaply than they'd otherwise have to pay, only to have them fail to pay any rent, refuse to leave after whatever the period, etc., - it can cause huge family rifts.

I wouldn't give her any money, either. I'd say it's all in long term bonds etc. that you can't touch. Spendaholics will never get a grip if they're constantly bailed out. A dd has a friend like this (long grown up) - absolutely feckless with money and enabled to be so by family who have invariably paid this or that for her.

Don't do it. I've lent money to family before - when periods of illness/hardship have happened upon them and they've needed it. I don't begrudge it and I'm pleased we were in a position to help without it hurting us financially. Nothing like the sums required for a house deposit, mind.

But your sister and her DH, presuming they are a financial team, need to decide where their priorities lie. Is it the holidays, cars and treats, or is it owning a property?