to not pay for a school trip

[Jupiter2Mars]

Ds2 has an upcoming trip through school. As usual, it needs to be paid for.

TBH Its under £10 but even at that price its a waste of money. I remember when DS1 went on it. He came back in a really bad mood because it was such a difficult, boring day - think 5 hours in a church spent contemplating.

What will happen if I don't pay for Ds2? I know he'll get nothing out of it, so if the school don't let him go, then that's fine, I think.

I don't know if its what turned DS1 into an atheist. It was a short while later that he first started to say how he felt. I know the RE lessons weren't helping either.

I'm trying to give him maximum space to grow up and decide for himself what he believes in. This atheism might be short-term, or it might be forever, but it is his choice.

DS2 is a different person. If he's bored, he's much more likely to find a friend to whisper with at the back of the room, or to ignore the instruction to talk about something. Thinking about, there is a good chance that he will cope much better than DS1 did.

I'd love to know who at the school came up with this idea though and why they think its a winner.

There's a short talk about something, the everyone is put into groups of 5 or 10. They are instructed to take it in turn to comment on what they just heard and add their own experiences and thoughts to it. Then everyone has a group discussion about the subject and everyone else's ideas etc. Obviously, you need to be respectful of someone else's views. To make sure it stays on track, someone wonders around each huddle listening into bits of the conversations.

That sort of thing would really make me cringe. It would only be bearable if real debate were allowed, which sounds unlikely.

You've reminded me about an evangelical meeting DSis went to. They were talking about the power of prayer and asked for examples of it working for people there, and they kept coming up with stuff like "I prayed to God that my train wouldn't be late and it wasn't" or "I prayed to get a place in the football team and I did." When it came to DSis' turn - and she is in fact quite religious - she said she was sorry, she didn't believe that God's function was to perform tricks at the behest of people praying to him and couldn't contribute - and it went down like a lead balloon. All those good Christian people made it very clear that she wasn't wanted there.

Does ds2 want to go? It is wrong to impose your negative views on him. If the class do further work based on this visit, however dull you believe it, he may prefer to participate. I also wouldn't take one child's view of his experience as typical of all.

DesolateWaist - that's unfair. i never said it was sitting in silence, and I've repeatedly tried to correct that false impression in subsequent posts.

Its in a church, so that's completely accurate but its not all in silence. Most of it is talking, although there will be silent prayer too (because there always is).

LIZS - I know a few other parents and there were various comments from them about what a boring trip it had been. I didn't hear anyone go out of their way to say something positive, as people sometimes do for other things relating to the school.

TBH its not hard to imagine that it wouldn't be a popular trip, is it?

Some of us don't have any choice.

I'm lucky in that I could afford to send my kids private to avoid a faith school but many cant.

I'm looking to take DS out of the private system & our two local schools including our catchment school are faith. The non faith non catchment school is oversubscribed & he can't get a place.

I find it very odd that you didn't even try to get to the bottom of what distressed your eldest either with him or the school.

It's also kind of hypocritical to send your children to a faith school then object to them being educated in that faith in the way the school regularly does.

It's also strange that you don't seem to have asked younger son if he WANTS to go.

Talk to your children and the school with an open mind or else move them to another school.

I don't think this is a particularly unusual trip if you send your DC to a faith school. Our DD went to a RC school and there were a number of retreats during her time there. Actually I don't think they were compulsory but most went.

I wonder if the reason your DS was grumpy was because he was out of his comfort zone having deep and meaningful conversations about spiritual stuff.

Graphista - ok to answer your points.

The email came through a few minutes before I posted abotu the trip. So, there has been no chance to ask Ds2 yet (but I will).

WRT DS1, if I had questioned him immediately, he'd have started crying. He was nearly crying anyway. So, I was soothing him by saying it was all over. A few days later I asked him, and it was clear he hated it. He gave me a description but I didn't quiz him hard. What I've written here is what I recall. My main memory is how angry and upset DS1 was when he got home because I remember being shocked to find him in such a state.

wrt to demanding Ds1 answer questions about his personal faith, i will not do that. I think its the quickest way to turn someone off. I am determined to give him space to grow and develop his own opinions. He knows that I am here and happy to talk, but I will not be dogmatic as I firmly believe that this is counter-productive.
Clearly that day was upsetting for him, I tried to understand what had happened but talking about it was making him angrier so I backed away. I might ask him tonight though, as the dust has long since settled.

5Foot5 - you may well be right. Its not something he'd ever be obliged to do at home.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for those moaning parents (we're they of the faith in question?) who went on the trip, found it dull but don't appear to have fed back. Nor do I have much sympathy with your assertion that DS1's atheism must have come from the faith school of the faith that you follow that you chose (it does sound like this school was chosen rather than foisted on you).

Doing dull shit is sometimes part of life, Christ, I don't know how many boring seminars and whatnot I've had to attend through work. Normally something useful came out of them, however small. Might be the same for DS2, and I do think that's how you should present it to him, instead of letting them think they can moan to Mum and she'll sort it so they don't have to do X, y or z. That's going to do them no favours out in the big, wide and quite frequently dull wide world.

Is it a retreat? So quite normal for a Catholic school?

When you sign up for a Catholic education, it is assumed you will be supportive of the school, not merely cherry pick the bits that suit you. To do so is quite disrespectful. Makes it difficult for the school do its job.

You are fully entitled to speak to school if you have a serious concern about something, but tbh from your posts I don't understand what that serious concern comprises.

Your DS1 had a horrible day when he did it. But it's unknown to you why it bothered him so much.

Your DS2 may have a completely different experience.

It isn't an optional school trip happening at a weekend - it's happening over course of normal school day so all children are expected to go who would be in school that day. Unfortunately it isn't an activity that you can't just opt out of with no further hassle involved.

I guess I can't understand how, on info you have given which seems to be DS1's experience plus the £10 cost, you have a serious enough concern about the day that necessitates pulling DS2 out, and either you or school having to make alternative arrangements for him.

School trips would become pretty undoable if all parents had that automatic veto for those reasons. The organisation of every school trip would be a nightmare with much potentially 'opting out' because parents didn't think that particular trip sounded enjoyable or value for money.

By all means don't allow your son to go on it (what are his views btw?) but only if you're sure you have a serious concern about the trip, rather than it being more of a personal preference that DS2 doesn't go and your irritation that you don't especially want to pay for something your other son didn't enjoy.

I would still let DS2 go. As you yourself have said, he is a very different child to DS1 - he might even enjoy the trip!

Not sending one child because their sibling didn't enjoy the trip is a bit like never shopping in Aldi because your sister hates it.

We had no choice other than faith schools for first and middle to those asking about her choice. Bugs me that we had to have religion shoved down their throats and personally I think faith schools of an faith should be banned.

Op it sounds pants. If he wants to go send him and if he doesn't keep him off.

I am an athiest. Through and through.

But you can't send a child to a religious school and then get all piffy when they get sent on religious trips.

I'm not proposing to speak to the school, unless to explain why Ds2 won't go on the trip (if he doesn't and the school asks why).
Also I don't know exactly where Ds1's atheism came from. Growing up and logic would be two likely reasons. The RE lessons seem to be counter-productive and he hated that trip but its nearly impossible for anyone to say when the first seed of doubt was planted in their mind.

This day trip is part of the school, albeit that i didn't know that when I filled out the common application form in year 6. Its only one day out of 5 years though, so I doubt it would have made even a pinprick of a difference to the decision.

Mostly, we just accept and get on with both the good and the bad parts of the school. Its just this day was so bad, that I'm nervous about putting DS2 through it too.

AS a PP pointed out though, Ds2 is very different to Ds1, and when i think about it, the chances are he'll probably find it boring too but he'll cope.

I do think its a rubbish school trip though. Whatever the objectives, there has to be better ways than this.

I can't share the view that this is a faith school issue per se. Esp given the OP chose the school and shares the faith.

It's about whether it's reasonable to opt out of something in the school day for DS2 because it had a bad effect on DS1.

I have arranged numerous dental/opticians/doctors appointments for school trips I did not think were worth the stress. Just don't pay and arrange an appointment. Don't send him either way it seems like torture not a trip.

So it isn't about the money, nor is it about the trip not being educational, nor is it about your DS being distressed. In the main, you just don't want him to be bored. Well that's okay, if a little indulgent. Just don't give permission - issue solved.

I am going to go against the grain here. Whilst lessons are compulsory assemblies and religious activities which is what I would count this as by the sounds of it from what OP has said are not compulsory. The religious c of e school I sent my kids to became evangelical and then ultimately creationist, I kid you not. Ironically I sent them there to avoid the rabid evangelical creationists our town is filled with. Finally I removed them from all religious activity except RE lessons, it got so bad.
This all started after an RE event my son attended and returned home furious. Seems to mirror his experience. Do you know who is organising the activities ? Usually it's an organisation unrelated to the school or the church itself. E.g. CMI That may give clue to their motive and what is included.

It's difficult to question your DS1 now but given the effect on him I would echo others advice to set out the consequences why you don't want DS2 to take part. That it had the opposite effect on DS1 and he rejected everything.

So what exactly are we supposed to do Chuck?

Home educate?

ovenchips - yes, or even the hypothetical question would it have been unreasonable to opt DS1 out of the day if had known what impact it would have had on him?
If the answer is its never reasonable to opt-out, then its clear that DS2 should go (and I should pay).
If the answer is sometimes its ok to opt out if you have good reason to believe that its going to be really upsetting, then I need to work out whether it is likely to be as upsetting for Ds2 as it was for Ds1.

Are the school alone organising this - can't believe they are not doing it with help from outside organisation?

Just checked, CMI are still doing events all over the uk many aimed at children. E.g. Dinosaurs or dragons - monsters or myth; dinosaurs and the amazing arc of Noah. Not any of these churches is it OP ?
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