New £23k Benefit Cap.

[legotits]

AIBU to ask if anyone still supports this?

Which families is this targeted at?

Anyone who will be affected, is it even feasible to not be pushed into debt?

I still come back to the fact that most of us don't really disagree on this . We want a basic welfare state and we want those of us who work full time to be better off than those who claim benefits and we don't want children to go hungry. Very few people on benefits have large families these days actually and as people say the benefits cap is lower if you are a single person (and is lower outside London) and in most areas does not really bite on most people anyway but it's very very important symbolically and has huge support. That was the thread question - does anyone support it and many many of us mumnetters are making it clear we very much support it.

"So you are saying people who are worse off as a result of the shouldn't make any effort to look or work?"

Yes of course that's exactly what I'm saying.

www.gov.uk/jobseekers-allowance/overview
Government info

I know people in work who can't afford glasses, prescriptions and dentists. Those out of work get a lot of help for these things. They get help with education and courses which many people in low paid jobs would be desperate to do so they could improve their children's lives.

Not everyone on benefits gets that help.

The only reason I'm getting funding for retraining is because my former employees are paying for it (from a scheme I thankfully signed up to about 20 yrs ago).

I would find that outrageously insulting. really? You would still be able to buy food and essentials, no different from a food bank really.

Babyjake you completely missed the point of my analogy. If you think it is OK to deny healthcare to smokers (or motorcyclists) because of the risks they expose themselves to, do you think it's fair to deny healthcare to everyone on the grounds that some people are smokers and motorcyclists? That's how this benefit cap works - in order to target "feckless parents" everyone must suffer. This is not about means testing or reforming the benefit system to weed out those who are taking the piss or find any kind of long term solution - that would be far too expensive. It is about saving money pure and simple and if that means taking money off those who truly deserve and rely on it then too bad.

"human rights??? No-one is saying you can't have kids. Just don't expect strangers to pay for them. "

No one is saying 'don't get sick/grow old' Just don't expect strangers to pay for your medical care/pension.

As a society we've agreed, haven't we, that children are helpless, are not responsible for the situations they find themselves in, and that we will - collectively - care for them if their parents cannot or will not.

We have a social consensus on that matter haven't we?

So now we are reducing some families to such severe poverty that many will not be adequately able to feed/clothe/house their children.

What do you suggest we do for these children?

Let them go unhoused/unclothed/under? Put them in a work house? Move them into old army barracks? Send them to soup kitchens? Put them in care?

What will happen to these children if their families can no longer house and feed them?

Is your answer 'I don't care?' And 'whatever' and 'tough'?

We've become a horrible, uncaring culture. :-(

No different from a food bank

And having to use a food bank is OK?! I've fortunately never had to use one but I imagine it's a pretty humiliating experience.

I don't have children. I chose not to. I choose to have lovely holidays. Will you pay for them?

So now we are reducing some families to such severe poverty that many will not be adequately able to feed/clothe/house their children.

Is 20/23k a year "severe poverty" though?

That's really what this thread was asking..

As someone who lives on less, I don't think it is.

If you disagree with the benefits cap, do you think there should be no ceiling at all, or a higher cap?

Nathaniel Matthews of Hackney Law Centre is currently tweeting:

"Have 2 cases where parents with 4-6 children will get no Housing Benefit. Councils and Court don't know what to do except evict. Parents ill" .

So all you fans of the benefit cap- what is the solution to this this today?

This is the reality on the ground of what you endorse.

I imagine using a food bank can be a humiliating experience, but if I needed to feed my children then yes. If I couldn't afford to shop and was given food vouchers I would be very happy.

If you disagree with the benefits cap, do you think there should be no ceiling at all, or a higher cap?

There already was a ceiling, just applied on an individual benefit by benefit basis.

Now they've all been lumped together.

I disagree with the total cap. It is a blunt instrument.

User the fans of the benefit cap just view those children as collateral damage.

Nathan last time I checked, holidays were not vulnerable human beings. Ridiculous thing to say, on a parenting website of all places.

Nathan..
I'm not sure if you are serious?
My kids (and others) will be the ones paying taxes to fund your healthcare and pension in retirement!!
How many people in the U.K. Work exclusively with children?...
Healthcare
Education
Social work
I could go on...
My dh is a HR taxpayer
I work pt
We receive no benefits and Never have
Are my kids acceptable to you??

If your income was suddenly cut by £100 a week how would you cope?

Do you have savings to fund a deposit to move to a cheaper home?

Can you quickly find a new job in a cheaper area? Plus schools for your children?

I moved house to a cheaper area with a longer commute. Had to move the children. However the biggest difference was I could access the £000s for the move and didn't need to move jobs. I could keep my childcare which is half of my salary because I earn so much, that it matters little.

With money comes choice.

"but it's very very important symbolically"

And you are accepting that it will primarily be children who will pay the price for this?

Because - say what you like - the people who are most affected in terms of numbers will be children. Not feckless adults but children.

I know someone who will be severely affected by this. She is a fucking idiot who has had six children in the space of 9 years with a dad who has never supported her and who has now left the country. She will not be able to feed, clothe and house her children now. No doubt there will be people who think this is just punishment for her making terrible, selfish choices, but the reality is IT WILL BE HER CHILDREN WHO SUFFER MOST. And they are not at fault.

And it won't stop women from making crap choices.

There's a reason why educated women as a group have much smaller families and have them later in life when they can afford to care for them without the help of the state. It's not because this group are just 'better people', it's because they are given better choices. Women like the one I mention above overwhelmingly tend to have failed in education, and who have limited choices.

The best way to stop women having families they can't support is to raise their professional aspirations and try to engage them in education. We apply these principles when thinking about aid to developing countries, but when it comes to disadvantaged and uneducated women in the U.K. We just think the answer is to shame, starve and punish this group into responsible behaviour.

"User the fans of the benefit cap just view those children as collateral damage."

Yup - that's the long and short of it.

I wonder if people believed that before the cap, people could claim endless benefits.

I wonder if people realise we have a massive problem with low pay. It is so low that it requires subsidy. What reasons are there for rolling over and accepting shit wages? I'll tell you why. Because we don't have enough unions to stand up for workers' rights. Some people think that's a good thing

This country is going to a moral hell.

There is no deserving / undeserving poor - they are all the same.
Just poor people who have fallen on hard times or are struggling for whatever reason.

I 100% disagree with that statement.

There are plenty of people being supported by the state who haven't 'fallen on hard time' as a surprise. I suspect your case is in the minority.

Although really people with children, and decent incomes who do not have income protection are pretty daft. You need to protect your family.

Pray tell, what "income protection" is there from a life changing disability or illness? I'm working with some savings but I have a disability, so I'd love to know what I can do to stop it getting worse.

Where's the moral outrage at the biggest 'welfare recipients' of them all? all those corporations and individuals that dodge paying their fair share of tax? Oh yes, I forgot, they're doing us all a favour because the wealth will 'trickle down'...something is trickling down, for sure!

"User the fans of the benefit cap just view those children as collateral damage." how exactly are they going to be damaged? We all have to make cuts when times are hard? The mother can get a job, training or volunteer to make herself more employable.