To feel very uncomfortable about this Guardian article?

[KingscoteStaff]

Front page of the 'Family' section. A grandfather talking about his 21 yo granddaughter who has just committed suicide.

It just doesn't feel real. Could it be some sort of exercise in writing the most unsympathetic narrator ever?

MsHoolies - how tragic

SpunkyMummy - I think he does. Otherwise what place does it have in the article? The way he retells it is not kind and suggests she was always manipulative. It's very unpleasant.

And what about the people left behind?

Her parents, siblings, friends who saw her every day. Where is their voice? They won't be getting articles published in newspapers.

Why does a published author grandfather from another continent get to monopolise her epitaph? In public and in quite unkind terms.

Would any one of us like that article to be written about our child? And for it to be the only article in the public domain about them?

I genuinely think that most people would be furious and think it was not someone else's place or right to do that.

It an act of unthinking entitled arrogance to do that to someone's family and friends, while bleating on about how she damaged her family. Totally uncaring of the damage he is choosing to cause those same people. Breathtaking lack of awareness in the article.

Stoic you have misrepresented the 'debunk' -

What was debunked was, as you seem to acknowledge, the theory of stages... that grieving people worked through stages or phases of grief.

The feelings people bereaved feel still include anger, for some, but not all. That is not in question. That you feel there should be some containment of that grief is your opinion. Not born out by the experiences of many who have experienced the suicide of a loved one.

Maybe the issue is in trying so very hard to make the visceral reaction fit into our sense of 'normal' and acceptable behaviour. That we don't like the idea that any one of us could be so inexplicably wrong as to actually blame someone for being so ill. Well, as posters including myself have tried so very hard to explain clearly, it happens.

Misdirected anger happens, and is something the person expressing it needs to be allowed to express and acknowledge. Why would you deny it, deny them the space to fully come to terms with every emotion they are feeling? Everyone acknowledges that the anger is misdirected... no one suggests it is tight or healthy to maintain that anger, that blame.

The only unacceptable thing written here is your statement that someone elses expression of emotion is wrong.

That's not what I thought at all. I did not see anything that suggested her being manipulative.

Imo it showed the transition from happy, fearless and slightly bratty kid (a "normal" kid) to an extremely troubled young woman.

He's giving examples of the difficulties and challenges the family faced with her in the sweet story. I think he has a point. Some people are born with difficult personalities. It's not their fault and obviously we keep on trying to help them but society should recognise that some people from a very early age are pessimistic, are unable to show joy in things, embarrassment maybe, are stubborn or difficult to help. Although they tried so hard to make things right for her she maybe fought against them. I've seen this. Obviously we don't give up, we keep on trying to help them modify their outlook but sometimes there is a perception that there must have been an event that caused the mental health problems or even people who caused it. I'm fairly sure that's not the case always. It's an accident of birth, some people need more help to get a positive outlook and to interact positively with other people. Some people just don't ever get enough help to get past that. I'm saying this aware that I don't want someone reading this to feel damned. I think the GF decided to say this without dressing it up and in his circumstances I think he has the right to say that. There isn't enough awareness of how difficult it is to help some people. If there isn't an awareness of that more people will slip through the net and commit suicide. This is a difficult thing to say and I don't want to criticize people who suffer with MH problems. It must be hell and is no way their fault but I do feel compelled to defend the GF. He has a valid point to make I think.

Emotions are unpleasent at times

Anger, resentment, bitterness, hate are all valid feelings as much as love, respect, protectiveness and so on

The article may help others who are grieving and struggling with similar feelings and that is OK to feel that way why should it be wrong

'They tried hard to make things right for her but maybe she fought against them'

The 'after all I've done for you' 'you were always such a problem' smacks of Stately Homes to me. I also don't believe that some people are just born with difficult personalities.

The feelings people bereaved feel still include anger, for some, but not all.

I know people feel anger at the loss of a loved one. I know the emotions people feel, the changes they work through.

But to direct that at someone who has killed themselves is selfish, self-absorbed, egotistical and ultimately just plain unhelpful. Just because we feel it doesn't mean it is OK.

Plenty of emotions are harmful to ourselves and to others. It is a sign of growth that we acknowledge that Yes we are feeling it, but No it is not right and it is not compassionate, and Yes I can do better.

I will never support someone directing anger at a person so vulnerable, so anguished, that they have taken extreme measures to end their own pain.

But to direct that at someone who has killed themselves is selfish, self-absorbed, egotistical and ultimately just plain unhelpful. Just because we feel it doesn't mean it is OK. ... I will never support someone directing anger at a person so vulnerable, so anguished, that they have taken extreme measures to end their own pain.

What an insufferable arse you are!

On behalf of all those other posters who have suffered loss by suicide and have felt the utter rage that sweeps through every single fibre of your body...

Fuck Off You Invidious Pillock

And don't bother, I already have!

On behalf of all those other posters who have suffered loss by suicide and have felt the utter rage that sweeps through every single fibre of your body.

I am not claiming to speak for you, so please don't claim to speak for 'all those other posters' who have lost a loved one to suicide. Your experience does not trump mine, or anyone else's.

It's definitely normal to feel anger at people who have taken their own life. I bet in most cases when people feel anger they also feel shame. Shame that they couldn't help more and shame that they are feeling angry.

To say that it is wrong to feel like angry after a suicide is horrible.

This is a very emotive thread and there may well be people reading it who have been or are suicidal and also people who have had loved one commit suicide. I hope everyone is careful about what they are writing and that posters try not to get too angry and indignant. It's an interesting thread and it would be a shame if if got derailed by arguments rather than discussion (Sorry to sound a bit thead police but I hope you know what I mean).

Sorry for typos and grammar

Then stop pronouncing... step off your Expounding Plank.

Have a little tiny bit of empathy! And try reading... or being honest in your quotes, because that s twice now you have misrepresented something:

1. The debunked science and
2. My last post... acknowledge the whole sentence you quoted, include the caveat. You'll look less like an unfeeling prat!

I don't judge people for whatever feelings they have about something - people are allowed to have their feelings whatever they are.

The point here is that most normal families, although they privately may be frustrated or stressed by a child/family member do not speak about them in negative terms to friends and acquaintances, let alone the general public in a newspaper article! most people are very defensive of their own children and close family members. They may argue behind closed doors but it is only toxic families who enjoy making a spectacle of their child or publicly complain about them to other people.

TheStoic

Why have you not acknowledged my posts?

I think you do owe it to people to acknowledge that your statements yesterday were way too sweeping

I understand you don't like this article. I don't either. But you took it way further than that. You took it upon yourself to criticise people for experiencing emotions. You did not make it at all clear that you were talking about sustained emotions and not fleeting ones (which now seems to be your position)

You do come over as pompous.

I think you should apologise, but I doubt you will

But you are judging people who don't feel the way you think they should feel

So there is a right and wrong way to feel when grieving

TheStoic

My mistake - posts were early hours of this morning, not yesterday. My point remains

Have a little tiny bit of empathy!

Unbelievable.

Ironically, I understand your rage. That's how I felt when people told me how 'angry' they were at my brother for killing himself. How 'selfish' he was to do this to my family. I found it (literally) stunning, that anyone could make his death about them.

The lack of compassion for him took my breath away.

There isn't a right or wrong way to feel, but it is wrong to do what he has IMO. If the whole thing had been anonymous then it would have been different.

TheStoic

I get it. You are saying that no-one should be told they must be angry

Others are saying no-one should be told they should not be angry

Can you not see that?

It's coming up to a year since I attempted suicide and was sectioned with my mother signing the papers. It took me many months to understand the truly horrible effect it had on my family members.

My dad was so angry at me that he couldn't come to see me. He couldn't understand where the illness stopped and I began. He still says that it makes him feel sick to see my self harm scars. I don't vilify him, he doesn't have the psychological nous to understand.

Luckily with time I have learnt to be open about my illness and we have become close again but he still can't speak about what happened. We all grieve differently.

Can you not see that?

Absolutely, NotYoda. But I don't agree with those people. I believe that it is wrong to be angry at someone for taking their own life - after their first instinctive, primal responses that nobody can help (the difference you noted from my first posts).

I've had to work through many emotions myself, and I still am every day.

TheGhost

I am glad you are surfing this.

TheStoic

I feel this has got so ugly and polarised

Stoic try to understand that no-one is saying that what you feel, believe is wrong.

Just that your statements about how others feel/have felt are unaccomodating and lacking in empathy!

surviving, not surfing