to think eight months in prison is a bit excessive for throwing bacon

[CondyLisa]

www.thesun.co.uk/news/2095440/two-polish-men-bombarded-london-mosque-with-tesco-bacon-after-oktoberfest-booze-binge/

"Blackfriars Crown Court heard that the pair had bought a packet of bacon at a Tesco after drinking heavily at the festival but could not remember going to the mosque on Sunday night, October 2.

Prosecutor Carol Summers said the mosque’s caretaker had at first thought the Polish pair were worshippers but was stunned when meat was thrown at him.

The men threw several rashers of bacon, also placing a third piece in the shoe of a worshipper."

They appear to have no prior offending history.

Obviously whether you are at a church, mosque or community centre, you shouldn't be hassled by drunken yobs and it is right that they should be punished, but this seems to be a de facto blasphemy sentence more than anything else.

I don't see that throwing bacon is more serious than, say, yobs ripping up flower beds that people have worked on, and which provide at least as much social utility as a place of worship - but the latter attracts a sentence of community service, whereas we have eight month prison sentence for some bacon.

You are right Chaz but as I said, our prisons are full.

IMO our emphasis as a society should be to put dangerous people in prison, not those who cause terrible offence but not actually harm anyone. This sentence is ridiculous.

audrey

It shouldn't matter whether a symbol is religious or not.

Secular ideologies, political ideas, religions, lifestyles (like veganism, abstinence) sexuality, gender, race... they all deserve the same amount of protection (as long as they don't target the rights of others, obviously)

SpunkyMummy
Absolutely, I agree. However, the poppy isn't an ideology, a political idea, a religion, a lifestyle, a sexuality, a gender or a race. It's a poppy, to commemorate the soldiers lost in war.

It's not directly linked to any religion and as such has no place in a discussion about a religious hate crime.

We have a criminal justice system which has recommended punishments and tariffs. The interpretation and administration of these is down to the Judge hearing the case.

Saying 'it seems harsh compared to x or y' is essentially meaningless because we're talking about individuals (the Judge) making their own decision based on their own opinions within the law. So it's not a case of offences committed against a particular group seen as more serious or less important than other crimes - it's a consequence of having one person impose the punishment.

I've seen people who committed serious assault or sex offences walk out of court. I've seen someone who didn't know what the fuck what was going on and stood in a corridor and put what he was handed into a car; convicted of armed robbery under joint enterprise laws and get 14 years.

I think that they should have got longer

audrey

I agree.

My main point was actually that the sentencing se ms disproportionate and that the same protection doesn't seem to be granted to other religions, (then again, other religions generally don't tend to respond the same way, nowadays. I hope the perpetrators won't suffer too much in prison...).

I'm not saying this because of burned poppies (although I am rather offended by this. But I do value freedom of expression and wouldn't want anybody to be imprisoned because of it).

However, I personally am against the existence of hate crime laws in general.

SpunkyMummy
I agree, the same respect should be given to all religions. Sentencing is awfully disproportionate, it's shocking that this crime was given the duration it was but things such as sexual abuse or assault are sometimes given lower sentences. Still, I agree with the sentencing, I just wish there was also fairer sentencing for other crimes.

I would agree with you, burned poppies are definitely offensive, it's a mark of patriotism and respect and shouldn't be disrespected.

" it's a mark of patriotism "

sorry but patriotism is for war mongers and idiots.

I honestly don't support prison time for thing like this.

Also for tax related reasons.

This wasn't a prank. This was a racially motivated hate crime. Well deserved. If only they were handing out more of these to all those awful idiots filmed harassing innocent people just because they are obviously different.

audrey why are you putting those things together? Sex, sexual orientation and race are in a different category to idealogies and religious beliefs.

audrey

*things
But yes, I absolutely agree :)

I have family members that are currently in the armed forces. So, to me personally burning poppies really is quite terrible. Not wearing one is a strong enough statement...

BratFarrarsPony
That is your opinion. However, patriotism is just support for your country and I would like to think everyone wants to support the people living in their own country? Unless you think that doesn't apply to you.

SpunkyMummy
As someone said earlier, it was a hate crime and probably used to make an example of, so that people don't attempt worse on someone based on their religious beliefs. The entire concept of this crime goes against the values of freedom of speech, freedom of belief, it's perfectly just to shut away those who don't value the freedom of others.

noeffingidea
I was quoting someone else, if you read up. That's why I grouped those things together.

" patriotism is just support for your country "

I disagree. As Samuel Johnson famously pointed out, “ patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”

BratFarrarsPony
Everything in moderation. It's obviously unreasonable to be so patriotic you can't see above the interests of your own people. But it is definitely not a bad thing to be supportive of your own people, to be proud of your country and your people and to want the best thing for your country and people.

Patriotism in moderation would be wearing a poppy on Remembrance Day, patriotism out of moderation would be valuing your country so highly and believing that you are the best country that you invade other countries. Both of these Britain have done, only one is acceptable.

audrey

Well, I certainly disagree.

As for the discussion about patriotism... I do think it's important to remember the difference between patriotism and nationalism.

" I do think it's important to remember the difference between patriotism and nationalism."

There is not a whole lot of difference tbh.

brat

Well, this is a rather unpatriotic statement. There certainly is a difference.

Just like there's a difference between moderate and radical Islam.

there is a saying in Poland - all the patriots died in WW2....:)

SpunkyMummy
The difference being that "Radical Islam" is by following the rules of the Quran, not even a form of legitimate Islam as it goes against all of the most important things they agree to. Such as not killing, harming nature, not slaughtering children etc.

The difference between Patriotism and Nationalism being that Patriotism can be a healthy respect whilst Nationalism can be incredibly dangerous.

My jaw is hanging open at the assertion that poppies are a Christian thing.

Actually, being anti-poppy - or at least not pro-poppy - is a Christian thing, for some Christians who adhere to Christian pacifism. Hence the introduction of the white poppy to commemorate all those killed in war, including civilians, without the glorification of war and militarism that red poppies have sometimes been associated with.

And in my youth red poppies were very strongly associated with militarism and rah-rah nationalism. And I knew Christian pacifists who didn't wear them.

audrey

Have you ever read the Qur'an?

"The difference between moderate Islam and radical Islam being that moderate Islam can be a healthy respect whilst radical Islam can be incredibly dangerous."

SpunkyMummy
I have read the Quran, what point are you attempting to make?