to think eight months in prison is a bit excessive for throwing bacon

[CondyLisa]

www.thesun.co.uk/news/2095440/two-polish-men-bombarded-london-mosque-with-tesco-bacon-after-oktoberfest-booze-binge/

"Blackfriars Crown Court heard that the pair had bought a packet of bacon at a Tesco after drinking heavily at the festival but could not remember going to the mosque on Sunday night, October 2.

Prosecutor Carol Summers said the mosque’s caretaker had at first thought the Polish pair were worshippers but was stunned when meat was thrown at him.

The men threw several rashers of bacon, also placing a third piece in the shoe of a worshipper."

They appear to have no prior offending history.

Obviously whether you are at a church, mosque or community centre, you shouldn't be hassled by drunken yobs and it is right that they should be punished, but this seems to be a de facto blasphemy sentence more than anything else.

I don't see that throwing bacon is more serious than, say, yobs ripping up flower beds that people have worked on, and which provide at least as much social utility as a place of worship - but the latter attracts a sentence of community service, whereas we have eight month prison sentence for some bacon.

... Ourpig??

Where's a Dane when you need one?

What is your question?

It was a disgusting hate crime. I hope they've learned their lesson.

However, it wasn't racist. Muslims come in all races.

I didn't realise your were Danish! So you can't just burn a flag because it's a Tuesday or in political protest? I'm oddly disappointed.

Also, what's your favourite city, area of countryside and beach to visit in Denmark? Planning to visit in the next year or so. How dog friendly is Denmark (we have 2 medium sized ones we could bring.)

YANBU!!

As a soldiers wife it boils my blood to read that Muslims burning a poppy get a £90 fine (and they had previous and were sober) yet this (first time offence, whilst drunk) warrants a prison sentence. Its the double standards that really bother me. They were both hate crimes, why not a fine for both or a prison sentence for both???

I don't think so. It's hateful. It's the same a graffiti on Jewish graves and vandalising a church. I liked the statement from the mosque.. we really hate donuts and I phones, please chuck some of those in as well.

Yabvvu and so are the really hateful right wingers on here. Some of these messages are truly vile. Bloody hell.

@condy

I was not saying that they SHOULD have got 14 years. I was saying that the sentencing guidelines for religiously aggravated damage range UP TO 14 years. As I pointed out in my earlier posts the norm for these crimes when tried in Crown Court ranges from 2 years imprisonment to a fine. Eight months is therefore on the more lenient side of the spectrum.

This is in response to your unfounded assertion that the accused somehow received an unduly harsh sentence. They obviously did not. The judge is well within the guidelines.

You may have a personal opinion that this kind of crime should not exist or that it should be treated more leniently. But in that case you need to engage with the process and get the law changed. We are lucky to live in a society run by the rule of law and not personal prejudice.

Burning poppies should also be a high profile crime and deportation if appropriate. But I live in a Muslim country and peaceful and tolerant it is. They don't behave like this.

Burning a poppy is not a hate crime i.e. it is not targetting someone because of a protected characteristic. You can't claim as someone said above that it is an anti-British hate crime because not all British people support wearing a poppy nor do you have to be British to wear one. Neither is a poppy a religious symbol.

A crime can be motivated by hate without being a hate crime.

I didn't realise your were Danish! blush So you can't just burn a flag because it's a Tuesday or in political protest? I'm oddly disappointed.
I'm not Danish, but I am (now) sat next to a Dane. Neither of us are aware of any clear and widely known rules regarding burning the flag. The Ministry of Justice states that the rules are spread through a variety of bits and piece of legislature. The Dane thinks that there might be a rule about having to burn a flag after you've stepped on it, but agrees this sounds like bullshit. I also don't believe you'd ultimately be convicted of anything for burning a flag randomly or in protest - maybe something to do with public order if you were being particularly provocative?

Also, what's your favourite city, area of countryside and beach to visit in Denmark? Planning to visit in the next year or so. How dog friendly is Denmark (we have 2 medium sized ones we could bring.)
Neither of us know anything other than Copenhagen. He's not a fan, I think it's OK but wouldn't choose it over e.g. Berlin, we're just here because we're here. Countryside... I think it's all more or less the same. Bit of fields, bit of woods... beaches are all very small and samey and unimpressive too round here. There's probably nice-ish beaches up in Nordsjælland and the coast to the north east where the wealthier people live. Denmark's pretty dog friendly but finding a hotel or rented accommodation you could keep them in near here would be a nightmare I expect.

As a soldiers wife it boils my blood to read that Muslims burning a poppy get a £90 fine
Not a hate crime.
Plenty of muslims fought alongside us in WWII.

NOT A HATE CRIME??? YOU'RE KIDDING???

Of course it's a hate crime. "A criminal offence is something which breaks the law of the land. Any criminal offence can be a hate crime if it was carried out because of hostility or prejudice based on disability, race, religion, transgender identity or sexual orientation.
In this case an extremist Muslim group called "Hell for Heroes" used the racial slant to burn the poppy. They intended to invite racial hatred towards the British as well as the British army. "extreme Muslim group which caused outrage by burning a poppy last Remembrance Sunday is planning further disruption on November 11, with a twisted 'Hell for Heroes' campaign.
The demo, which mocks the charity for injured soldiers Help for Heroes, is due to take place outside the Royal Albert Hall, the same location where a poppy was burned last year.
Emdadur Choudhury, who burned the poppy, was fined just £50."

". As I pointed out in my earlier posts the norm for these crimes when tried in Crown Court ranges from 2 years imprisonment to a fine. Eight months is therefore on the more lenient side of the spectrum."

This is absolute nonsense. Firstly this case was not tried in the Crown Court, but rather the Magistrates, and secondly you are quite wrong to presume that there is a continuous spectrum of punishment.

As it says in your kind link

"the court should first decide on the appropriate sentence without the element of racial or religious aggravation, but including any other aggravating or mitigating features;"

For criminal damage, those guidelines are here

www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/item/criminal-damage-other-than-by-fire-racially-or-religiously-aggravated-criminal-damage/

This offence appears to fall into this category:

"Minor damage e.g. breaking small window; small amount of graffiti Band B fine Conditional discharge to band C fine"

As it seems there was only minor damage.

That would be a £100 fine or similar.

Then, however
"the sentence should then be enhanced to take account of the racial or religious aggravation;"

So the sentence has been 'enhanced' because of the religious aggravation all the way from a minor fine up four levels to what would be the range for 'Damage over £10,000'

So it is nonsense to say that the sentence is on the lenient side. Your CPS reference only shows the MAXIMUM sentence, it doesn't say what the typical sentence is, which will almost never be in the middle.

@ Candy

Your op post says it was tried in Blackfriars Crown Court. Is your op wrong? Or are you just making it up as you go along?

If the range is two years imprisonment to a fine and the sentence is eight months imprisonment this is on the more lenient end of the spectrum. This is a matter of fact not opinion.

There is nomsuch thing as a typical sentence. Each case is different. This is why we have a court system to assess the evidence rather than relying on half baked reports from the tabloids.

NOT A HATE CRIME??? YOU'RE KIDDING???

Sorry, FourKids, what part of what you copy-pasted is evidence that burning a poppy (or being a Muslim and burning a poppy) is a hate crime?

I think most Muslims would be pretty disgusted by these arseholes burning poppies, it's not the majority opinon at all. I'm fed up of the poppy being taken over by racists/xenophobes banging on about "our way of life" and insinuating that "our" way of life is intolerance, bigotry and racism. Ugh. The poppy represents freedom and sacrifice. Ex squaddie's DP here, so I get it I really do, it was a disgusting, hateful act (which in my opinion makes it a hate crime). But it isn't just British born soldiers the poppy represents, all commonwealth soldiers, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Jewish, atheist, Christian, all races and creeds fought and died to afford us the freedoms we have today. Racists and bigots using the poppy to propagate their bullshit makes me want to vomit.

Thank you!

YANBU - it was a horrible, offensive thing to do but people get lesser sentences for actual physical violence. It's out of proportion.

"Your op post says it was tried in Blackfriars Crown Court. Is your op wrong? Or are you just making it up as you go along? "

No, if you actually read the thread and all the links you would see they were convicted at the magistrates' court in October and committed to the crown court for sentencing.

"If the range is two years imprisonment to a fine and the sentence is eight months imprisonment this is on the more lenient end of the spectrum. This is a matter of fact not opinion."

Totally wrong; if 80% of offenders are sentenced to a fine 15% to a community sentence and only 5% receive a custodial sentence then a custodial sentence is not lenient.

You simply have not provided any evidence to support YOUR assertion that the sentence is lenient. Arguing that because the maximum sentence is X and the minimum is Y, then the middle of this is the average simply wrong.

"There is nomsuch thing as a typical sentence. Each case is different. This is why we have a court system to assess the evidence rather than relying on half baked reports from the tabloids."

Actually there totally is, the sentencing guidelines provide a range based on the value of the damage in cases of simple criminal damage. Thus there is a typical sentence for £5 worth of damage that is different from £5,000. In this case, however, the sentence here is NOT for the damage, which is legally trivial, but for offending Muslims.

So basically what you have here on a sort of legal richter scale is the original offence being around a 1.5 and then the aggravated version being a 6.0. That being so, it doesn't seem just to describe it as 'religiously aggravated criminal damage', when the 'criminal damage' is actually so trivial as not to be prosecutable, the whole crime is the religious element.

Which is like I said, akin to a blasphemy law, because without the religious element the crime essentially disappears.

Its a bit of a joke that people get suspended sentences and such for actual assaults while stuff like this is punished harshly. however thats not to say stuff like this shouldn't be punished. It just makes a bit of a joke of our justice system when offending someone is treat worse than actually hurting them.

It's a hate crime. They'll serve four months and be released.

" . I am surprised and shocked that two Polish men have done this."

I am not surprised at all - Polish people can be dreadfully racist and intolerant of difference.
I cannot imagine why you would be surprised. Shocked yes but not surprised.

They were bloody lucky in their judge. Should have been longer. That sort of thing HSS started roots and bloodshed in some places.

has started riots and bloodshed