To be dreading the US election.

[savedbythebell]

I've never before been too bothered at the outcome of an American election, but this one just fills me with dread. I don't want Trump to get in, I don't want Clinton to get in.

It's just awful, both seem truly awful options, and I'm a bit appalled that a country the size of America couldn't have come up with better than these two.

Trump is awful, he just seems crazy, but Clinton wants to take on Russia and send the world to war. The awful thing is, there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. Is there any light at the end of this tunnel?

just to be clear, using a private email address for government emails is not illegal (Colin Powell, previous republican sec of state used one) and the department regs allow staff to do so. What was more 'funky' was the use of a private server which should have been flagged to the state dept so they could advise. this didn't happen so, whilst not illegal, what happened was against departmental policy. The FBI decided that 'no reasonable person would prosecute' based on what they found and that it was a stupid but not illegal action. 113 of the over 30,000 looked at by the FBI were classified. Again the FBI found no evidence of intent to violate law or policy, just stupidity.

On the other hand, Trump has been caught on tape talking about grabbing women to kiss and grope them without their permission. He is also due in court in December to answer a civil case regarding rape of a (then) 12 year old. He has suggested that his followers hit and beat up people who disagree with him, said the secret service protecting Clinton should stand down and see what happens...This article is worth a read:

nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/10/the-insane-things-youveforgotten-about-trumps-campaign.html

From Snopes: WHAT'S TRUE: Roughly 22 million White House e-mails exchanged via private servers during the G.W. Bush administration were deleted instead of being archived in accordance with the Presidential Records Act.

Everyone was doing it. Many Republicans more than Hillary.

It's disappointing that the choice comes down to these terrible people.
I don't take the argument that she is the lesser of two evils, though. She might be more experienced but she is still a politician under investigation from the FBI; dangerous (Bhengazi to say the least); dishonest and a greedy crook - as is her husband who also lied to the american people. Her own party knows that. Even Obama had to lie for her on account of her own stupidity in using an unsecure personal account, and that is beginning to taint him.
I can't see why anyone would vote for her over Trump. Or vote for Trump. Why not flush the whole Clinton family out, embrace change and see what someone else can do. If Trump does get in, his power (like Obama's) will be restricted anyway, and he can be voted out at the next election.
The whole election worries me, especially when people want to cling on to a crooked politician just because they are a democrat. It's a shame it can't be called off.

And newyorker I hear what you're saying about Trump, but didn't Hillary (through connections and seen on video) plant people at his rallies to incite violence? Are you going to mention Bill Clinton's treatment of women? I promise I'm not being argumentative as I'm no Trump supporter, but IMHO they're as nasty as each other!

I always imagine that the new President steps into the Oval Office, to find a group of suited officials who then sit him or her down and explain what they can actually do. I don't think the President has as much power as it appears.

Also, isn't Trump trying to buddy up with Putin?

Agree that the whole thing is a car crash.

lovelyredshoes if you seriously think they're 'as nasty as each other' then you don't know very much about either candidate. They are miles apart in temperament and experience.

Look at 9/11. Compare what Trump was doing in the days after with what Clinton did. Then you'll get the measure of the man.

When people say anything along the lines of them being as bad as one another it leaves me gaping for a while.
Millions of people are going to vote for Donald fucking Trump as their choice of US president. That's actually quite scary.

Lovelyredshoes. Both those statements are kinda true of you don't look too hard. A local staff member (so someone who works for or is volunteering at a local party level, state or county) was caught suggesting they plant people at Trump rallies. It was caught on video and the person was promptly sacked by the local party. Not ideal I grant you but hardly the same as the party nominee standing at a rally and suggesting violence towards the other nominee.

With regard to bill and his treatment of women. The accusations of the three women that Trump brought to the last debate have been investigated a number of times over the last 20 years. They have been widely discredited by a variety of sources from both sides of the political spectrum. Granted bill did some distinctly non presidential things whilst in power but so did JFK and FDR both of whom are held up, at least over here, as well thought of leaders.
So,no. Not nearly as bad as each other.

The state of the world right now needs someone who would rather follow the avenues of peace, who wouldn't be too likely to provoke a war

Have you read anything about Trump at all, I mean, seriously?

All I know is Putin wants Trump to win, so that must mean he's less likely to stand up to him.

I am staggered that you view Putin's endorsement of Trump as a positive.

No doubt if they dug up Hitler and got him to approve of Trump, his ratings would rocket.

It's bloody awful but on the other hand Obama is an celebrity rather than an effective president. Obamacare is a truly awful piece of legislation which means lower middle class families are facing 50% increases in health insurance this year (about $1600 for a family of 3 before copay a) and the Senate is deadlocked. Something has to give.

If you think the current situation is good then you probably aren't in the US.

I feel sorry for those Americans who'll be painfully aware they will be the laughing stock of the world with Trump as president.

A racist, sexist and let's be honest ignorant bully as their leader? Like turkeys voting for Xmas.

Thank you, Dixie, for that excellent summary. Applause!

Happy Obamacare saved my DS2's bacon when he became ill, lost his job and needed specialist treatment. He had an 80/20 plan with a $250.00 deductible, $15.00 office visit copay and $5.00 prescriptions. He paid $78.00 per month. I pay $500.00/mo for the same benefits as a Govt Retiree.

Thank God for Obamacare.

Carefor I hear you. DH and I were saying that if Trump wins we'll be afraid to travel out of the US. It'll be worse than Bushie and the 2nd Gulf War.

Yes Obamacare is working for some people. But I know qualified teachers that will be uninsured this year because they're subsidizing people who don't work. $1600 a month is not affordable on a teaching salary. It's not ok that people who study, take on student debt and work full time in professional careers are going without healthcare. 50% increases are not ok.

Happy A teacher who doesn't have employment related health care? I'm very surprised that there are any school districts in the US that don't offer health insurance!

The people who 'don't work' are on MediCaid, not Obamacare. My son was getting a temporary disability benefit and that's the only reason he DID qualify. If he put 'no income' on the screening form he was told he needed to file for MediCaid.

But I don't want to derail this thread, which is about the election, not health insurance.

Clinton's email problem is a national security crime. Her private server is suspected of being set up to hide the pay to play/access for cash relationship between her Office and the Clinton foundation. The FBI found nothing on Trump and Russia: on the other hand you have Clinton donors enabling the sale to Russia of Uranium One. That's the sell off of a fifth of US uranium capacity to Russia. Since 2000 and while she was in office the Clintons have gone from flat broke to 250m, selling influence and speeches to the wealthy and powerful (after the uranium sale Bill gave a half million dollar speech in russia for a bank promoting uranium stock.) More than two millionon in donations from uranium one chairman to the Clintons foundation were not disclosed to the white house despite a pledge to Obama. She has lied under oath. She lied in office about benghazi, and she lied to the families of the dead in private to their faces. She committed perjury in saying shed handed over emails when she hadn't. Her team bleached electronic communications despite sub poenas from the FBI. She broke freedom of information laws and destroyed documents. Her team actually used hammers to smash phones rather than hand them over. Her multiple email / document failings amount to obstruction of justice.

On nine eleven I believe Clinton recently lied about being in New York at the time.

It IS awful, and while I don't think Clinton would deliver the changes America so badly needs, if I were American I'd vote for a poodle in a bikini if it was a choice between them or Trump.

But if he does win, will it be any worse an act of self-immolation than the UK voting for Brexit?!? I doubt it. We're in no position to give lectures from this side of the Atlantic

Clinton would see the west at war with Russia. She would pursue a no fly zone. Already we have at least one US- Russian near miss over Syria. So near there was jhetwash. DeConflict process resolved the issue. A no fly zone confrontation would not be easy to deconflict.

In is hard to see how the middle east/north Africa situation improved when she was in office. I am exercising understatement.

Yes: democrat trouble makers were planted at trump rallies. Some come last in the oppression hierarchy for Hillary Clinton. Apart from one woman, that is.

Some = women in that last post I did.

Been reading round. Even huffpo calls the clintons foundation 'a massive clearinghouse for trading favours and corporate brandwashing'

Clinton is a criminal. The pay to play stuff is coming out now as well as the workings of the Clinton Foundation. And RUMOUR is that she now been implicated in child sex ring along with Bill and Weiner. I'd like to see more proof of that, but this is the latest in a long list of accusations that keep coming. The mainstream media remains silent.

Regardless of who wins, nothing much will change. The system is already in place and the president does not have THAT much power. Wars make a lot of money so we'll always have those. World War 3 has started some time ago in the middle east.