To be angry with Justine Roberts

[T1mum3]

For saying on Jamie Oliver's facebook live chat that we should tell children in primary schools that they will lose a limb due to diabetes if they don't eat right? I'm angry because amongst primary school age children in the UK 5355 have Type 1 diabetes, and 7 have Type 2. Type 1 is autoimmune so not related to lifestyle.

All those kids will be fighting day and night, taking around 6 injections a day or wearing an insulin pump (putting a cannula in every two days), pricking their fingers 10 times a day and counting every single morsel of carbohydrate that passes their lips to try and keep themselves well enough to go to school and take exercise. They don't need to know about amputations yet.

99 per cent of children with diabetes have Type 1. They are made more vulnerable to bullying everyday because of the obsession with childhood obesity.

Anyone who hasn't got the message about healthy diets and kids yet obviously needs some kind of intervention. Type 2 diabetes is a huge and growing issue. But making diabetes and amputations into a boogy man to scare small children is disgusting.

I don't think anyone is denying the need to provide children with education about nutrition. What I took offence to was that your remarks could increase bullying and fear amongst a vulnerable and protected group (children with Type 1 diabetes are classified as having a disability under the Equalities Act 2010). I'd like to hear how you feel this is consistent with mums net policy on ablism and your "this is my child" campaign.

I'd also like to see evidence that scare tactics amongst the younger age group are effective in change in eating habits amongst the older age group. Do you have that available?

@Headofthehive55

I see many parallels in the anti smoking campaigns. People said it couldn't be done, but the smoking rates have plummeted. There is much less heart disease than twenty years ago.

Me too.

@T1mum3

I don't think anyone is denying the need to provide children with education about nutrition. What I took offence to was that your remarks could increase bullying and fear amongst a vulnerable and protected group (children with Type 1 diabetes are classified as having a disability under the Equalities Act 2010). I'd like to hear how you feel this is consistent with mums net policy on ablism and your "this is my child" campaign.

I'd also like to see evidence that scare tactics amongst the younger age group are effective in change in eating habits amongst the older age group. Do you have that available?

As I've already said this relates to type 2 diabetes - and I apologise for not being clearer on the FB live chat. Education, of course, needs to appropriate and accurate but given we have obesity problem that many consider to be an epidemic and a projected rate of diabetes that is set to cripple the NHS in 20 years, I think we have an obligation to children to educate them about the risks and it's positively irresponsible not to. That doesn't mean there aren't loads of other things we should be doing to - involving labelling, supermarket regulation and using the tax system. It's clearly a massive and complex problem.

Educate them on the risks, perhaps, in an age appropriate manner, but the focus should be on the benefits.

@GingerIvy

Educate them on the risks, perhaps, in an age appropriate manner, but the focus should be on the benefits.

To be honest we've had 5 a day as a very clear public message for ages - and a very small percentage of children have 5 day. I'm wondering whether a focus on the benefits is enough?

It would be if the schools actually could get it correct and actually lead by example.

My dcs' school did the healthy eating thing, but yet teachers were handing out sweets for treats on practically a daily basis, school lunches had high sugar puddings every day, and children were coming home with information saying cheese is a bad food and that they should have low-fat food (when children actually do need some fat in their diet as they need it for development).

I've already said this relates to type 2 diabetes Except that it doesn't. Because most people, like you did today, conflate the two conditions. If you, as an educated spokesperson, can't manage to make the distinction when speaking publicly, then how do you expect a child of primary school age to make the distinction?

Secondly, the figures you quote around amputations don't only relate to type 2 diabetes. People with type 1 diabetes have a 4000 times increased risk of amputations and they are included in the figures you mention (as are the people with Type 2 who are not obese).

If the real concern is the cost of diabetes complications to the NHS there should be a concerted effort to improve the care and access to education and basic equipment (like testing strips) for all people with diabetes.

Stigmatising a condition is not going to help with this.

I still don't think you are recognising the point that your remarks today feed a culture which leads my child (who has a disability due to organ failure) to be stigmatised by society and regularly bullied. I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

My daughter is 7 and she knows only too well that high blood sugars can lead to amputations, blindness, kidney failure and nerve damage. She knows this because MODY diabetes is genetic and she has seen it happen to older relatives.

What she doesn't need is adults and children around her thinking it is because of her diet.

Accurate and helpful nutrition education, alongside prioritising cookery and life skills in the curriculum - yes please.

Sweeping statements and generalisations that shame and stigmatise - no thank you.

What is being implied is that fat people are stupid and don't realise that being overweight can lead to health problems. I have yet to meet anyone struggling with weight issues who doesn't know that. It doesn't help because eating difficulties are complex, multifaceted and biopsychosocial.

What allowls says. Exactly.

To really help change just like with bf, cooking skills are needed. Printing booklets about healthy eating is really going to reach very few - about as good as a poster implying breastfeeding makes you feel great (ultimately but not when a baby can't latch well as you don't know what you're doing).

Having been a T1 diabetic as a child, terrified of dying early and not understanding what diabetes meant for my future I'd be wary of how these messages are communicated. More harm could be done than good. Even as an adult diabetic I don't want to hear about amputations - I know the risk is there and it's fucking scary, despite having excellent control. And what about the children (eg my kids) who have a diabetic parent, who get to hear all the scare stories about what could happen to their mum or dad? No child wants to hear a badly delivered message, that's potentially factually incorrect (and God knows there's enough people who don't understand the differences in T1 and T2 diabetes, or have the sensitivity to talk about it in the right way) that causes them to fear their own parent being affected in this way? Scaring kids doesn't necessarily stop them doing something either - we were shown a horrific video at school about smoking related illness, featuring someone with a tracheotomy, which sadly didn't stop me smoking as a teen.

As for being irresponsible - I am a responsible parent because I safeguard my children's mental health as much as the physical by feeding them a balanced diet and keeping them active without making a big deal of it. I tell them healthy bodies come in all shapes and sizes. I tell them that we need to eat different kinds of foods to keep our bodies healthy - so only eating sweets is unhealthy but only eating vegetables would also be unhealthy. The food is not healthy or unhealthy in itself.

What is irresponsible is making simplistic associations and generalisations whilst associating food choices with self control and virtue.

when children actually do need some fat on their diet.

An excellent point. Children do need more fat in their diet, but are pointed out how it's 'bad'. How do you plan to explain to a child that chicken is healthy but chicken nuggets are not?

Getting the message across to children may help them later in life, however if their parents can't afford whatever middle class, 20 'healthy ingredients' meal made from scratch and slow cooked, over a bag of whatever Iceland is selling for £1.50 done in 20 mins, then what? Going to start invading their homes, throwing quinoa at them whilst crying about lost limbs?

There are far more issues here than just teaching children to make the right choices, and shaming those who cannot help what they are fed/have health conditions. I have known two people in my life who had t2 diabetes caused by other illnesses, both ate balanced meals and were not obese. It's just another case of people who can afford to live in a certain way, looking down at others wondering 'oh but why can't the little people live the same way, I must pass on my wisdom that they are obviously too stupid to know about themselves'.

Golly I so agree with the OP.

But telling that this happened on anything to do with Jamie Oliver as I have posted several times on here about what an idiot he is regarding the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes.

At my 12 year old's last clinic appointment - his HBA1C was very good as he has good control and the consultant said 'well done , carry on like this and it won't effect your life expectancy' - what a lovely thing to tell a child.

Good nutrition in children is of course important but I really really wish people would differentiate between the types of diabetes and also not demonise either condition.

Diabetes is really rubbish and I appreciate it costs the nhs a lot. Although actually we self fund some of my child's treatment as do many other parents.

I wish Justine's apology post had just been an apology - it had an air of 'I'm sorry but . . .' about it which was rather sad. People make mistakes and I appreciate that if you have a child with type one then you are likely to be more sensitive about it.

But the OP is right - children with it get a lot of bullying. My son has been called 'a diabetic freak' and told he got it because he ate too much sugar etc etc.

And that's before I even get started and the links between poor nutrition and poverty.

I think when looking at how to "fix" this that it's often forgotten that there isn't just one reason for the "obesity epidemic" in the UK. This isn't just a simple straight forward "people eat too much or just eat rubbish food" thing, and diabetes is not a simple "whoops you ate too much sugar so now you're diabetic" thing.

It's going to take a lot of different things put into play to help, and it isn't going to help by demonising anyone or anything and it isn't going to help by punishing people or making it more difficult for them.

I don't know really what the answers are, but I think coming at it from a "oh you poor fat people, you just don't know what's good for you" angle isn't the best approach.

Allow I'm with you on that - lead by example and don't make a big deal out of any one thing. Eating and mental health are so intertwined, especially with diabetes in the mix. I knew the risks of poor diet to my diabetes when I was younger, but it didn't stop me binge eating and developing a very disordered attitude towards food. In fact I blame diabetes for my inability to control what I ate. It was like self-sabotage. This was only "solved" with the help of a specialist diabetes psychotherapist in my twenties. Sweeping generalizations won't help anyone.

And it doesn't really matter if you're talking T1 or T2 - telling a room full of kids that they could develop T2 and suffer as a consequence doesn't help the kid listening who already has T1 and is doing their best to manage it but knows they're at a far higher risk of problems in the future.

Agree with MrsC that a proper apology would have been much better than defensiveness.

Diabetes (1 or 2) is hard enough to deal with as it is without people fuelling the misconception that it's somehow our fault that we or our children develop one of these conditions!

Yes type 2 cropping up in children is a serious issue, but scaremongering and blame is not the answer

I get fed up of people talking about type 2 as though its peoples fault - a child recently told me that their mum 'wanted them to make it clear she had type1, not the one caused by being fat'.
My parents both have type 2, and my mum was slim and very active plus ate a very healthy diet when she was diagnosed, and has needed insulin all the time in spite of being super careful with her diet and so on (now she has dementia and isn't in control of her own care). She still needed insulin when she was underweight

Did you see Jamie Oliver also talking about amputating aswell : at the end of the sketch taking about when he was in USA and the LA children: scared, because their parents having parts of their body being 'lobbed off'.

So, he too compounding the idea of amputating body parts.

That's enough to scare the young children who were sat in front of him, for this debate.

Let's get kids eating healthily. Let's tell them that they'll get t2, and have their body parts lobbed off?

Let's discuss some of these things that are being bandied around as if they are 'facts':

Breaking the NHS: no. The NHS is going to disappear due to politicians. Not be broken by type 2 diabetics.

Yes obesity is a factor of type 2. So are many other factors. Did you know that there are 1000's and 1000's of thin type 2 diabetics. Fit , healthy, some ran marathons, then developed type 2.

We need to be careful of the generalisations and comments being bandied about here.

I wonder what DiabetesUK will think of all this.

Helpful to diabetic children? Helpful for the cause? Or diabetics like me, generally? Me thinks not.

Please have the grace and dignity to offer a proper sincere apology, rather than a half hearted defensive retort.

@OnceMoreIntoTheBleach

Agree with MrsC that a proper apology would have been much better than defensiveness.

Diabetes (1 or 2) is hard enough to deal with as it is without people fuelling the misconception that it's somehow our fault that we or our children develop one of these conditions!

Yes type 2 cropping up in children is a serious issue, but scaremongering and blame is not the answer

Hang on, I don't see how this is defensive and not a proper apology?:

"You're right I did mean Type 2 and I should have been more specific - apologies for that."

But if it comes across that way, I'm sorry again!

It was an apology. But it was a pretty flippant one.

Will you be putting something on the JO site to make things clearer Justine.

Umm, how about your whole post Justine:

You're right I did mean Type 2 and I should have been more specific - apologies for that. It's actually a great shame these 2 very different conditions share the same name - a point Dr Dawn Harper, the GP on the panel, was lamenting before the event.

I do, however, believe children should be educated on nutrition and the potential damage to long term health of our current eating habits. Quite apart from consequences for individuals (there are more than 135 diabetes amputations in the UK every week now.) the current prediction, if we carry on as we are, is that the NHS could be bankrupted within 20 years. If we believe sex education is important in primary schools, why not health/nutrition education?

That's what I meant by an apology that was 'I am sorry but . . .'

I am really wondering if Justine has let an intern log in as her - this is so not how I am used to seeing her post.

Sorry I meant glib rather than flippant