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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

.../naive/stupid/ridiculous/tiresomely 'female' about this??

101 replies

NappiesGalore · 10/02/2007 08:32

stepDS age 7 is here for w/end. hes not v happy at the mo and needs some tlc. emotionally speaking like.

anyway; he really really wants me (and dp has said i would, grr) to help him build/paint some little character model thingys which are part of a game. called warhammer. its a fantasy futeristic game but its really all about war.

i am a pacifist. i hate war (i know i know, dont we all) i hate violence and i honestly believe that little children growing up playing war games like its nothing and normal is one of the reasons adults think war is a reasonable way to deal with things... and i dont want any part of allowing/assisting any child to 'play' at war... harmless as it seems to everyone else on the planet apparently...

SO. am i being a daft old lentil weaver about this, or should i stick to my guns (haha! see wht i did there??)

over to you. lot.

OP posts:
Monkeytrousers · 11/02/2007 10:17

I getcha

kimi · 11/02/2007 10:56

DS1 age 10 has ask me to point out that he loves war hammer, he is not a social misfit, and he knows whats real and whats not, he has no plans to invade poland or any other place and has no plans to ever join the army.

(can i point out that he has a very high IQ, must get that fromm daddy, but also has tourettes and he tics much less when playing as he has to focus on the game)

He would also like to point out that alot of the players are older then him and could spend their weekends hanging out scaring old ladies and causeing trouble, but instead spend the weekend playing a harmless game.

ScummyMummy · 11/02/2007 11:18

Totally agree with the posts from Tigermoth, soapbox, Aloha and Kimi's son.

Twiglett · 11/02/2007 11:18

now I used to be adamantly against guns .. but happy if they made guns out of other stuff like lego, toast etc

but now I let both of mine (2.8 and 6) play with guns .. in fact DH bought them both a cowboy gun set so he could go to a cowboy party last month and the pure pleasure it gave them reminded me of playing cowboys and indians when I was little

but Barbie ? .. never ever ever

Monkeytrousers · 11/02/2007 11:19

(I play Grand Theft Auto on DP's playstation)

Clarinet60 · 11/02/2007 11:21

I agree with Xenia et al too. My son plays with warhammer, lord of the rings, and they are fighting against hideous monsters that have been cloned. He never acts out any killing - it's all strategy and hiding.

I think you could teach him a lot about the futility of war by playing with him, but also, have you considered pretending it's loads of little Hitlers you are fighting? I'm a pacifist too, but I draw the line at people like Hitler who have already killed millions. Not Hitler and his innocent army you understand, just Hitler - loads of cloned little Hitlers.

That said, it's pointles pretending to enjoy something you hate - kids see through that in a flash. Could you sit with him while he paints them and you get on with something else, talking to each other while you go?

NappiesGalore · 11/02/2007 12:43

i am a bit at the idea that there are only two alternatives for young boys/men to be spending their time doing; scaring old ladies/getting drunk/breaking into cars, or strategy war games...

am afraid that point is rather lost on me.

but im glad kimis son has a lovely time with his little men. and clones. and guns.

90% of this is that it just isnt my thing! leaves me brain dead with boredom. just like barbie. but each to their own n all that.

btw - call me utterly simplistic and naive if you will, but i actually think the correct course of action when someone declares war or starts wiping people out is to arrest them. not validate their actions by going to war with them and causing immeasurable damage to everyone caugt up in it.

i know i know, who would have that authority...blah blah blah.

id do it! am happy to be high overlord of the planet if the human race is happy to accept a step forward

OP posts:
kimi · 11/02/2007 15:32

ITS A GAME!!!!!!

Clarinet60 · 11/02/2007 22:30

You're right, but, em, they did try to arrest Hitler - there was just the little thing of his army getting in the way.....

Clarinet60 · 11/02/2007 22:33

I used to think I wouldn't let my children have guns. Then I read somewhere that they just invent their own out of sticks and if you stop/suppress it, you run more risk of creating the very personality type you're trying to avoid.

kimi · 12/02/2007 08:51

I banned all war toys.... so they shot me with lego!!!!
I had guns as a child and as yet i jhave not invaded anywhere or recruited an army.
A friend of ours is VERY in to WW2 reenactment and did ask if DP and i wanted to join in, but i think marching round a muddy field dressed as a Nazi/villager/POW is a bit sad.
He says it educates people, and a lot of school turn out to watch etc.
I think there is enough war already and if i want to "watch" one then i just tuen on the news, still each to his own.

dh40k · 12/02/2007 13:14

Many thanks to lurking DW, who brought this thread to my attention and suggested that I might have something to add on a lot of points raised here.

First, with respect to tabletop wargames:

If you are a committed pacifist (by which I mean, you wouldn't want your DP to raise a hand to the thug assaulting you) then I doubt there is much I could say to persuade you that they are a good idea. If, however, your pacifistic philosophy is restricted to the belief that international dispute is better solved by any means other than war, then perhaps you should take a second look at tabletop wargames as a pursuit for your DSs.

Most "warlike" games - and in this I include Action Man, GI Joe and toy weapons of all sorts - involve one "good" side (usually represented by invincible hero characters) thwarting one "bad" side (usually represented by powerful but stupid evil characters): no one really gets hurt and or injured and it's home in time for tea and medals. Tabletop wargames stand as a stark contrast to this. Now, the following points apply broadly to all such wargames, historical and otherwise, but I'll mainly apply the points in detail to the Warhammer stable of games.

Warhammer and its sister game Warhammer 40,000 both have a strong context: that is, a back story that makes the battles fought "make sense". In both cases, the context is a world (or a whole galaxy for WH40K) torn apart by almost constant warfare. These worlds are portrayed as bitter, terrible places to live where every day is uncertain, plagues and monstrosities stalk that land and even death is no end to the constant battle. Yes, this holds a certain grotesque fascination for young boys; but no one in their right mind would want to live there! In fact, it provides an instant and salient lesson of a world where war and conflict is allowed to become the principle political tool of government.

Secondly, the battles themselves teach the players that no amount of magic armour or clever tactics can save you from the whims of chance. It doesn't matter how many hours you spent painting your general or how beautiful that regiment looks on the tabletop: if the dice go against you, you're dead meat. War, it reminds us, might be an adventure, but it's an adventure that some people don't come back from.

To expand a little of the wargaming community: yes, if your only exposure to it is through reluctant forays into Games Workshop, it can seem to be dominated by pony-tailed beardies with an unhealthy Lara Croft/Heavy Metal fixation. Just remember that there are many more players who AREN'T in GW because they have jobs to go to. A much better idea of the social cross-section can be found by going to a wargaming club night. There is a national parent organization for wargaming clubs, the Gaming Club Network, that sets a code of conduct and sponsors CRB checks for club supervisors. Visit any of these clubs and you will find - yes, the pony-tailed geeks. But you will also find doctors, lawyers, post men, security guards, students, bank managers, accountants, dentists, psychiatrists, computer programmers and film stars (Will Smith and Robin Williams are both big fans of Warhammer 40,000).

And you'll also find children. And you'll also find an environment where those children can compete with men three or four times their age as equals. Yes, it IS mostly men. As I'm sure most of you are more than aware, there just doesn't seem to be the same appeal to most women - although the proportion of gamers who ARE women is increasing year on year and some of the world's best miniature painters are women.

I could go on about what I believe are the positive benefits of wargaming, but I'd be here all day. Suffice to say that examples include: craft skills, negotiation, probability theory, diplomacy, strategy and a surprising amount of advanced physics.

While I'm here, I'll also speak up in defence of the Games Workshop staff. They are practically unique in that they work for not much more than minimum wage because they passionately LOVE what the company does. Yes, they are all CRB checked: it's a mandatory pre-requirement to work at the shop. They will try very hard to answer your questions, but they are also working hard to prevent the little **s dropped off by parents who think GW is a free creche from nicking the stock and they get a little testy after the twentieth person that day comes in looking for a copy of World of Warcraft (take note: GW does NOT sell computer games; no, not even the ones based on their own Intellectual Property). Minimum wage part-timers, remember.

If you want to speak to someone who has a bit of decent customer service training, ask if the manager of deputy manager is available.

Alternatively, you can phone their Mail Order line or visit their online store. GW has one of the highest standards of Mail Order customer service in the world.

For the record, I don't work for GW and never have. I have played their games for about twenty years, however, and founded my own local gaming club. You may be interested to hear that I've spent seven years in the British Army - in a non-combatant medical support role, at least partly due to my religious beliefs.

Oh, and it's already illegal to declare war. No one has made a formal declaration of international war for almost two hundred years.

Regards,

R.

RELATED LINKS:
uk.games-workshop.com
www.gcnm.org.uk
www.victorialamb.com

kimi · 12/02/2007 13:34

DH40K.
Well said.

My 10 year old son loves it and it has been wonderful to see him have so much fun, make new friends, and spend time making and painting the little figures. Also it is the first time he has been allowed to go somewhere with out a parent.
The guys who run the shop are nice, have contact numbers in case we are needed and really look out for the kids that go and play.
Guess where my son will be later today

boredwithwaitingforminiMOSSY · 12/02/2007 13:38

I second dh40k but he puts it more eloquently than I ever could!

Although I'm more of an AD&D girl myself...

pointydog · 12/02/2007 18:25

Ohhhk.

So how's about a mumsnet night out to a wargaming club night?

tigermoth · 12/02/2007 20:57

dh40k - so glad you posted! You know your stuff far better than me. I am not by any stretch of the imagination a wargames expert, but I know of many lovely people who are into this and I think it gets a really bad press. Thanks for the links.

When I took my son to 'Salute' last year, I saw hardly any other mothers taking their sons. Yet this is, I believe, the largest wargames event in the UK. I am sure it would appeal to lots of boys - and girls. The miniture models (spaceships, monsters, star trek, knights in armour - not just your average soldier) are wonderful to behold and the people who run the games seemed, on the whole, to be really patient and helpful. The event had at least 10 large board games that youngish children were encouraged to join in with.

I feel it's a sad anomoly that wargames activies and clubs never seem to figure in 'what-to-do-with-the-kids type of listings.

It seems to be considered more acceptable if your ds happens to be into sport or science or Harry Potter - lots of info to hand, lots of listings and publicity - but if your ds, like mine, happens to be into role play with soldiers, you have to do a lot more digging around.

Dinosaur · 12/02/2007 21:03

I played constantly with toy guns, cowboys and indians etc but that didn't stop me going to Greenham Common when I was 17 .

Clarinet60 · 13/02/2007 12:42

Thanks for the info DH40K.

bundle · 13/02/2007 12:45

dh's grandfather was a conscientious objector, could you be the conscie? (sorry haven't read through whole thread)

Clarinet60 · 14/02/2007 13:02

That's a good idea, then he could explain to you why he is fighting and you can tell him why it's not a good idea.

Clarinet60 · 16/02/2007 11:09

There - killed it.

FluffyMummy123 · 16/02/2007 11:10

Message withdrawn

Clarinet60 · 16/02/2007 13:40

icod

dh40k · 18/02/2007 19:36

"So how's about a mumsnet night out to a wargaming club night?"

I thought that was a rather good idea, so I've put it to the GCN leadership as something to consider on a nationwide basis.

In the meantime, if anyone in the York area wants to know more about this "wargaming" thing, drop me a line.

dh40k

pointydog · 18/02/2007 21:00

gulp.

shut it, pointydog

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