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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Toby Young deserves scorn for this article?

510 replies

BowieFan · 25/10/2016 19:11

Apologies for linking to the Daily Mail, but I've used a service that denies them advertising revenue: <a class="break-all" href="https://anonym.to/?www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3869182/Why-Lefties-misty-eyed-movie-romanticises-Benefits-Britain-says-TOBY-YOUNG.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">anonym.to/?www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3869182/Why-Lefties-misty-eyed-movie-romanticises-Benefits-Britain-says-TOBY-YOUNG.html

Aside from the basic errors (it's 100minutes long, not nearly 3 hours), it's just an awful article. The fact that Toby Young thinks everyone claiming benefits is a smoking/gambling/drinking loudmouth is just offensive. I'm shocked - not that it was published - but that he thinks his opinion is the opinion of everyone.

I'd love to see him survive on benefits. I wonder if he'd be saying the same things then?

OP posts:
graphista · 26/10/2016 22:25

1 we are ALL tax payers - even me, I pay tax on my utilities, food, clothes etc
2 I paid income tax if you're directly referring to that for a number of years.
3 you'll never eradicate fraud completely (either by welfare claimants or big business) but to only target one of those groups, and for it to be the one least able to fight back is a despicable injustice!
4 even if Bowie were being paid in a roundabout way to work in the food bank, isn't that precisely what taxes SHOULD be paying for? Helping the needy ?(although the fact we even HAVE the need of food banks in a rich country is insane!)
5 election 2015 oh boy where to start
A - only 24% of the eligible actually voted tory
B - they're (Tories) currently being investigated for election fraud by I think at last count 11 police forces.
C - several other legal challenges are being made in terms of illegally enforced policy changes

Anecdata - i've been given Hmm that face several times since I had to stop work by people who DON'T know ME, my medical history, my families medical history, my financial circumstances etc I've even had some truly awful direct comments including from people working for and representing benefits agencies along the lines of 'you don't look disabled/sick', 'well I bet you spend money on booze/fags/sky/nails/nights out etc' unless you know intimately and for fact the circumstances of the people you're judging you're wrong! PLUS even the people you 'know' are cheats represent a tiny minority.

smallfox2002 · 26/10/2016 22:26

Well not really.

Blaming the jews was popular, didn't make it right.

Invading Poland was popular, didn't make it right.

:)

Quornflakes · 26/10/2016 22:31

BowieFan
If your on reduced hours at work because of health problems how are you working so many hours for a charity? I know it costs a business a heck of a lot more to pay two people for a post rather than one. And as your employer is the state that means your costing tax payers a lot of money to work for free at a charity and its the children that lose out.

smallfox2002
The implication of your post was that Toby Young stepped down from running his school because the job was far more difficult than he had imagined. That is a LIE. He was part time running the school and because they were expanding he decided to take on someone full time because he wasn't able to do it full time. Get your facts straight instead of reading from a garbage left wing newspaper.

and yet there is a magical pot to reduce Corporate Tax
Ummm no, corporation tax is reduced, more businesses locate in the UK, make more money and therefore pay more tax. It raises MORE tax, that is why we do it.

user1471446905 · 26/10/2016 22:32

smallfox - hitler seriously! must try harder!

Quornflakes · 26/10/2016 22:36

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Quornflakes · 26/10/2016 22:37

smallfox2002 Wed 26-Oct-16 22:26:36
Well not really.

Blaming the jews was popular, didn't make it right.

Invading Poland was popular, didn't make it right

You know you are an idiot when you start saying crap like this.

Me2017 · 26/10/2016 22:38

Can I just say it is actually a very good thing that some of us of very very different views are on this thread peacefully discussing our very very different views? I am glad I live in a UK where we can be so radically different from each other and I think it's a really good thing that we talk about these issues and can try to understand the view point of other people. I doubt those of us who support certain policies will change our views but it is still important we listen to the views of others.

smallfox2002 · 26/10/2016 22:40

Quorn: What I said was: "Toby Young also stepped down from running his school, and admitted that the job was far more difficult than he had imagined."

Which he did, I never said that he had stepped down just because of this, but it was certainly a reason.

Oh and btw since when is the Standard left wing?

Thanks for calling me a liar though.

Oh and your point about lowering corporation tax? Well its kind of discredited in modern economics, its too basic. In the years since 2010 for example we've head steadily lowering CT, and companies have been sitting on a £700bn cash pile, yet investment is at a low, therefore corporation tax as a % of the entire take has been falling for a number of years.

Do try me on economics again though its fun.

Oh and Bowie can do what she likes, how dare you judge her you utter toad.

smallfox2002 · 26/10/2016 22:42

"You know you are an idiot when you start saying crap like this."

No its fair game to point out when someone says a policy is popular, that it isn't right.

Oh a liar and an idiot? Care to insult me some more? Or are you going to post more GCSE level economics?

Dawndonnaagain · 26/10/2016 22:42

And as your employer is the state that means your costing tax payers a lot of money to work for free at a charity and its the children that lose out.
Quorn You know you are an idiot when you start saying crap like this.

BowieFan · 26/10/2016 22:42

Quornflakes

Because the reason I had a nervous breakdown was from the stress of the Tories constantly pushing you for better and better results. I'm not at the same stress levels working for a charity.

It hasn't cost the state a penny piece more - I took a pay cut and the money I lost went to the teacher who I now job share with. The cost to the state has been the same as it was when I was doing 50 hour weeks.

And no, the children aren't losing out. But go on, keep trying to have a go at me.

I'm not really bothered. I'll be retiring next year and have already been offered a paid position in education consultancy so you won't have to worry about paying me any more Wink

OP posts:
graphista · 26/10/2016 22:44

Ok if you're citing Godwin's law as problematic how about some of these popular ideas:

Workhouses
Slavery
Jim crow laws
Enforced adoption of children of poor/unmarried mothers
Extradition of minor criminals to Australia etc
Criminalising of homosexuality
Denying women and others the vote...

Were they right?

BowieFan · 26/10/2016 22:46

The Magdalene Laundries were very popular as well. Doesn't make them right!

OP posts:
smallfox2002 · 26/10/2016 22:47

This is fun!

user1471446905 · 26/10/2016 22:47

graphista - not sure what your point is? Could you refer me to the post where I say the policies are right? Of course lots of ideas that are not right are popular, that's one of the main problems with democracy!

user1471446905 · 26/10/2016 22:49

smallfox - again please refer me to the post where I said the policies are right. I didn't, I said they were popular, sorry if you can't tell the difference Wink

BowieFan · 26/10/2016 22:50

Yes but you said a policy being popular is democracy. We simply said that popular policies are not always good. So cutting benefits might be popular, but that certainly doesn't mean it's a good thing - there are times when democracy is very bad. You only have to look at the US where gay marriage was legalised in California only to be taken back 8 months later - is that right? Is that democratic?

OP posts:
smallfox2002 · 26/10/2016 22:51

You didn't say they were right, you did say they were popular and its just pointing out that there is a difference between the two.

Sorry you can't keep up ;)

user1471446905 · 26/10/2016 22:53

sorry I wasn't aware we needed to point out the obvious!

user1471446905 · 26/10/2016 22:59

bowiefan - re gay marriage it's not right IMO but it is democratic. I am guessing that there are several people on this thread who would be more than happy for the referendum result to be ignored or overruled by parliament but then millions will be screaming about democracy. The problem with democracy is what's popular very often isn't what is right.

Quornflakes · 26/10/2016 23:15

This reply has been deleted

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Dawndonnaagain · 26/10/2016 23:19

Quorn I have reported your post. It is unkind, lacking in empathy and downright rude.

BoinkAlongQuietly · 26/10/2016 23:20

*AN idiot

Dawndonnaagain · 26/10/2016 23:21

As for your opinions on idiocy, Quorn, I'd try a touch of self reflection.
Referencing Hitler in a society which is taking regressive steps, demonising the poor and disabled is a logical stance. Godwin's law isn't at play here, although idiots law seemingly abounds.

smallfox2002 · 26/10/2016 23:23

No, its a fair comment.

It wasn't a lie was it, it was fair and accurate comment. He did quit, and he did say the job was far harder than he thought, direct quotes:

"I was very critical of England’s public education system under the last Labour government, and I hadn’t grasped how difficult it is to do better, and to bring about system-wide improvement.”

"As someone coming into education from the outside, the bits you see of other schools are only the tip of the iceberg.You think, ‘well, I could do better than that’, as you are pointing to the tip of the iceberg, without realising how much more there is to it.”

So Yes I was accurate, and I was right.

"I didn't like being asked to perform in my tax payer funded job so I decided to have a holiday because of 'stress'. See it all the time in the public sector, but not so much much in the private! "

See the quotes from Toby Young above, you know nothing of the pressures in the public sector, oh and in my experience, the private sector can be far more massively wasteful than the public, and far more cushy too.

You are being nasty, you know it.

Oh and referencing Hitler in a debate about the popularity of policy vs their ethical position is perfectly relevant.

Do try harder dear.