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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

'It might not have been rape, she might have had sex and regretted it afterwards'

1002 replies

BravoHopeful · 21/10/2016 10:29

This statement makes no sense. If you had consensual sex and the next day regretted it, why on earth would you go through the whole horrible experience of reporting it to the police and everything that follows? You would just move on and put it behind you.

It's always trotted out as a likely explanation in 'date rape' type cases. But it makes no sense whatsoever. AIBU?

OP posts:
Fuckingitup · 25/10/2016 19:57

Clearly if you are still reading, it seems you might not have shared much about your experience before. I hope you can see past the unhelpful posts to those who are supportive.

I wanted to say that I have found it helpful to talk in real life. After posting here earlier this year, I was in brief contact with my local rape crisis organisation by email. They were supportive, caring and so clear in terms of validating feelings and cutting through the confusion of what was going on in my life.

Ive since spoken to my counsellor. Everything isn't magically ok but i feel believed and heard. And that's worth a lot.

I understand you may prefer not to speak about it orvmay not need to - but I thought I'd share because I know it's difficult to go from keeping things to yourself to getting help. And MN isn't as helpful on this subject just now as it could be.

Clearlymyfault · 25/10/2016 19:59

You know what, I think the people on this thread who have stood up for a woman's right not to be abused and raped over a man's right to rape have been fucking moderate in their tone, actually.

I'm angry, as I expect are many others, that it isn't enough that we have to suffer the violation in the first place, but then we have to put up with deluded people thinking that our rapists are worthy of sympathy. If that doesn't serve to make someone strident in their tone, then I don't know what will.

WomanWithAltitude · 25/10/2016 20:01

Korma explicitly said that some women weren't really rapeable (not properly, anyway) because they were promiscuous. If that's not supporting rape and rapists I don't know what is. Other have very cheerfully explicitly promoted rape myths, even when advised why what they're saying is factually incorrect.

Ptomoting rape myths = helping rapists, helping them get away with it.

I'm sorry that's unpalatable but it's a fact.

Fuckingitup · 25/10/2016 20:01

Giddy Welcome to the thread (your brave!)

Being a goady fucker isn't brave. Its just being a wanker.

MyGiddyUncle · 25/10/2016 20:03

Why is another pov being a GF?

WomanWithAltitude · 25/10/2016 20:03

And yes, I do see people as superior if they argue against rape myths and victim blaming. Because they bloody well are superior to the cesspit of misogyny some people like to wallow in.

slenderisthenight · 25/10/2016 20:06

pink By all means don't toe my line but don't think you have the corner on the feminist viewpoint insofar as it represents women generally.

If you can wrap your head around the idea that intelligent people can't get the hang of trains occasionally, surely you can understand that sex might occasionally be a little more complicated and therefore might quite possibly flummox someone, especially if they're both inexperienced, feeling under pressure to act things they don't feel, and have had a drink or two?If you see on a train timetable that a train is leaving at two o'clock, at least you have some solid information to go ahead with.

Since you don't yet get to decree who women can have as sexual partners and which men should be banned from having sex, I'm not sure why you feel it's an option to say they shouldn't be having sex in the first place. They can and they will and they might benefit from an 'idiot's guide to consent' in the same way that your friend might find a masterclass on catching trains enormously helpful.

I'm not suggesting you be gentle (WTF?).

I haven't yet seen a really engaged feminist response to why consent is always easy-peasy given those threads that pop up relatively frequently in which posters try to decide if they gave consent for sex that they didn't want, or if their consent was never sought in the first place.

My feeling in almost all of those threads has been that the person in question was raped and it's always stunning to see how many women disagree.

The question 'Did he have reasonable grounds to think you were participating?' is the one that everyone asks themselves. They don't respond: 'Did he ask you if he could penetrate you? He didn't? Well then you were raped. He should have seen there was reason to doubt and the fact that he didn't makes him a rapist.' That seems to depart from common sense on threads in which women acknowledge that they had taken care to seem enthusiastic in kissing/sexual touching - in fact, as if there was no reason to doubt their enjoyment - but hadn't intended to convey enthusiasm for penetration.

I would understand the feminist position better if there was an insistence that verbal consent should always be sought (seems to cover both parties interests) but this is rejected. I find it enormously frustrating. Making penetration without irrefutable evidence of consent completely unacceptable would be much easier if consent was recognisable a mile off, which is usually but not invariably the case.

Your insistence that problems in communication can't occur (because you see a line of argument that could potentially be exploited in court) is only facilitating more of these fucked up situations IMO.

More posters would disagree but don't want to stick their heads above the parapet. Surely you don't want that - a situation where other women disagree with what you are claiming is representative of women and can't say so? And all, apparently, in the name of protecting women. One would have thought that these are the very people you would want to be engaging with - they are women, they are as clever as you, as valid as you and yes, they do, generally, give a damn about rape victims.

ComfortingKormaBalls · 25/10/2016 20:06

Arrrh! Misogynists = anyone who isn't a feminist

venusinscorpio · 25/10/2016 20:06

This subject always attracts a disproportionate quota of goady fuckers who want to "debate" as if it's a university debating society. And wheel out their hackneyed old analogies and their 17th century ideas about how women should behave and pretend that they're being victimised by terrible unreasonable feminist views. There are actual people who have been raped on this thread. Listen to them.

WomanWithAltitude · 25/10/2016 20:08

I find it insulting to my intelligence that these wankers portray their views as neutral. They are not.

If someone sides with the status quo view that an oppressed group is at least partly responsible for their own oppression, they they aren't neutral they are part of the machinery of oppression. There is no neutral in that scenario - you either recognise it for what it is and fight it, or you tell the oppressed group to suck it up. Because of course, it's so unattractive and offputting when they try to fight it and get angry as a consequence.

venusinscorpio · 25/10/2016 20:19

If I thought what I said was maybe insensitive and upsetting someone who had suffered something deeply traumatic, I'd have a little wonder about possibly whether I might have fuck all knowledge about it and be wrong. I wouldn't keep hammering on with it. There are people who get a kick out of causing distress to people. I wouldn't want to be one of those.

WomanWithAltitude · 25/10/2016 20:19

Ptetty much every feminist on the thread has said "if you're in any doubt at all, ask".

So feminists may not see verbal consent as essential (if someone is ripping your clothes off it's not needed, for example), but we do get that it might be needed, and it's a very simple thing to do.

That really should be controversial, or difficult to understand. But for some reason people are ignoring that suggestion and wringing their hands saying "But how are we to know? It's so complicated and confusing!"

Just ask. It's not hard.

MostlyHet · 25/10/2016 20:19

No, Korma, you're a misogynist because you said upthread that women who were promiscuous were unrapeable. That's nothing to do with not being a feminist. That's everything to do with being a complete wanker.

WomanWithAltitude · 25/10/2016 20:20

^shouldn't be controversial

venusinscorpio · 25/10/2016 20:21

"Some women like to lie there motionless and look miserable you know? Why should they be forced to give verbal consent?"

venusinscorpio · 25/10/2016 20:24

I wonder if mygiddyuncle read that sensible post of korma's in their 2 minute skim read before they felt to compelled to tell us to calm down dear?

WomanWithAltitude · 25/10/2016 20:25

If a man is having sex with a woman who is lying still, not looking enthusiastic, and they choose not to ask and check that she is happy with what's happening, then either (a) they are being reckless as to whether they have consent or not or (b) they know full well they dont have consent and aren't asking because they know the answer will be no.

Neither group deserves the sympathy and defending that they are given by rape apologists.

WomanWithAltitude · 25/10/2016 20:26

Group (a) are no better than (b), by the way, because the only logical reason for being reckless about consent is if you don't give a shit about the woman.

venusinscorpio · 25/10/2016 20:26

Like rape apologists give a fuck about the sexual needs and satisfaction of passive women.

venusinscorpio · 25/10/2016 20:28

Cross posted. I wanted to say that it's disingenuous for rape apologists to suddenly develop a concern that passive women would be forced to answer the question or sex would cease.

venusinscorpio · 25/10/2016 20:32

It's quite transparent that these people simply wish to make excuses for men who have sex with women who don't vocally protest or show they are expecting it or wanting it. I have a bit of an issue with that as I know what it is like to freeze when someone penetrates you without your consent.

Clearlymyfault · 25/10/2016 20:33

Fuckingitup thanks for your concern. I think it is really safer to not tell anyone in real life, it's bad enough reading these comments on here, I don't think I could cope with them in real life.

CheshireChat · 25/10/2016 20:35

But a lot of posters have said when in doubt always ask, including myself. That's why people are saying that ultimately it's quite simple, just bleeding ask one way or the other, never assume.

venusinscorpio · 25/10/2016 20:44

I think WWA's most recent posts are spot on. These men do not deserve the sympathy they are getting. They are reckless about consent and don't care about their partner. It's easier not to say anything and hopefully the woman won't say no.

Isitadoubleentendre · 25/10/2016 21:05

Has anyone actually come out and said they support rape then? I definitely missed that.

Not as explicitly as that, but definitely been a 'y'know, sometimes men just cant tell if the woman he has his penis inside really wants it there, but hey, that's just the way the cookie crumbles' tone from some posters on this thread.

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