'It might not have been rape, she might have had sex and regretted it afterwards'

[BravoHopeful]

This statement makes no sense. If you had consensual sex and the next day regretted it, why on earth would you go through the whole horrible experience of reporting it to the police and everything that follows? You would just move on and put it behind you.

It's always trotted out as a likely explanation in 'date rape' type cases. But it makes no sense whatsoever. AIBU?

I believe the millennial term for prick tease is "friend zone"? which is possibly an even more disturbing concept. Has someone been going round telling blokes that if a woman is friends with him he is at some point entitled to have sex with her?
But that's another thread for another day!

Pinky I've seen a colleague accused, and students too at work, and seen the damage caused by this; it was horrible. As you know full well, malicious accusations are made by students against teachers with all the concomitant fall out, so to say that I am a rape apologist, and perpetuating myths is just untrue. If you are that keen for a name how about Comfort Yinusa?

'Pricktease' is a term from when I was a teenager, and I was called it on more than one occasion, even you admit to having done your fair share of it, so whatever you want to term it, it happens. If you read my post carefully, you will note that I didn't use it as an example of how a woman can get herself raped, but as an example of how mixed messages can be confusing to the audience they are being aimed at. You may have had boyfriends that can deal with non verbal clues and communication, but not everyone does, hence the need for explicit consent.

If you think that someone advocating explicit consent before sex is a rape apologist, then perhaps it is obvious why explicit consent is needed, or celibacy.

Pinky I've seen a colleague accused, and students too at work, and seen the damage caused by this; it was horrible. As you know full well, malicious accusations are made by students against teachers with all the concomitant fall out, so to say that I am a rape apologist, and perpetuating myths is just untrue

So the students got convicted did they? I've read a few stories about convictions re false allegations and don't recall a student/teacher one.

We know false accusations happen - the facts tell us this, but it's a complete myth that they happen at an alarming rate like people imply. Or at a rate high enough that we have to warn "our lads" about these malicious evil women in their droves. You are honestly better spending your time talking to your son about how male rape because he is more likely to get raped than be accused of it.

I understand the meaning of prick tease. I do not believe being a prick tease creates a grey area. It's generally a term used to degrade women or moan because she didn't commit to full sex with a man. It's it a relevant term to use when discussing rape.

I'm sure some people (hopefully very few) do think consent is a grey area. My point still stands - people who believe that consent is enough of a grey area to be a problem in their decision making should abstain from having sex as they clearly don't have the capacity to do it responsibly.

I've explained my reasons as to why I think you're a rape apologist, you can find them upthread, I'm not repeating them. And the only reason you "advocate explicit consent" is not because you want to ensure all parties are safe and respected, but in case your lad gets accused of rape. If you can't see the problem with this I really don't know what else to say to you.

Oops thought you said student accused a colleague!

Anyway did all these accusers of the students and colleagues get convicted?

Oswin Now as far as I know women would be called prick tease for flirting and kissing men then not fucking them. The gamut went a lot further than flirting and kissing, right to various degrees of undress (or no dress whatsoever), stringing the bloke along, until you wanted him to switch off. That's where the grey area comes in, imo, as consent could be implied until/unless no is explicitly said.

You still haven't answered Pinky's question teacher.

Were the accusers charged for making a false accusation? If not then what makes you so sure that the accusations were false? Or are just assuming that no conviction = made up?

there have been recent cases at universities where young males have been accused and then later found not guilty or the case being dropped as in the case of Ben Sullivan.

Only 6% of rape accusations result in a conviction.

What about the other 94%?

That 94% figure will include accusations where charges were dropped or not even brought at all, a not guilty verdict being reached or allegations being withdrawn.

Do you really believe that that 94% of rape accusations are false?

Nope still no grey area.

Pinky It doesn't matter at what rate false accusations happen - the fact is that they do, and I have seen the fall out, hence ensuring my son knows there needs to be explicit consent. I am still not clear on why I shouldn't be attempting to arm my son with the knowledge of some of the pitfalls that are out there, and I want him to be safe, as he is my child. Having come into contact with some very damaged individuals, who should not have been in mainstream, as we didn't have the resources or training to cope with them (and the damage was not their fault, but of their horrendous abuse), you don't know what is underneath the surface of anyone, so yes, I want to protect him.

I think being a 'prick tease' or whatever the term is 30 something years on can create a grey area having sent out the very mixed messages myself but we will have to agree to disagree on that one. The same with consent....look at unnamed QC in the Stening case. He clearly thought she was consenting...she decided some time later that she hadn't.

I think you are a misandrist if we are flinging derogatory terms about. You are at liberty to think what you like about me, but you are wrong, and I repudiate your reasons. You just don't like the fact that I disagree with you in some cases.

Virgin The allegations weren't true, but see my comment about damaged individuals to Pinky and you might see why the accuser wasn't charged.

It's late here, so off to bed.

This is idea that being a 'prick tease' creates a grey area is utter shite.

All that term refers to is a woman who consents to some stuff (kissing, touching, whatever) but not full sex. As long as the man interacts with her normally and pays attention to her reactions it should be pretty clear what is and isn't consented to. Just like in any other sexuap situation.

It's not 'mixed messages' (the idea that consenting to some stuff but not sex is a 'mixed message' is awful - as if kising normally = consent to sex?).

"Shall we...?"
"Do you want you...?"
"Do you want me to...?"
"Do you like...?"

All the man has to do is communicate and he will be very clear where the consent stops. It's not rocket science and it's not a grey area.

And the fact that you use a derogatory name for women who want to do some things but not sex is appalling btw. There is nothing wrong with wanting to enjoy foreplay while not wanting sex. Nothing at all.

The thing is, horrible though it is, the phrase "prick tease" is actually the antithesis of a "grey area" - the phrase wouldn't even be used if the man hadn't realised the woman had withheld consent for actual penetration! It's a phrase that's used to whinge about women who are happy to snog but then decide they don't want to take things further (which is, I hasten to emphasise, perfectly okay behaviour), or even (because its primary function is to try to shame and guilt women into putting up with sex they don't want) women who dress nicely then (oh the horror) turn out not to be interested in engaging in sexual behaviour with any old random - the nice clothes were either for their own amusement, or to pull a man they fancied.

But I find it seriously sad that Scary thinks we should be teaching our children "boys, get consent in writing because women are lying bitches", "girls, say 'no' clearly and forcefully if you don't want it, because if you don't say it, men are perfectly entitled to have sex with you." (Incidentally, I've pointed out, and pointed to research, to suggest that 6% of men are rapists, and explicitly said this means 94% are not. I'd suggest Scary's world view - men will go ahead with sex a woman doesn't want unless she says 'no' very forcefully - is far closer to a world view which treats all men as rapists than mine.)

I want a world where we educate both sexes that sex is for mutual enjoyment and pleasure, and you only consider it if you are damn sure your partner is enjoying it every bit as much as you. And you ask. Every single sodding time. Not because you want to cover your arse, but because that's what acknowledging your sexual partner as a fellow human being worthy of respect and kindness and consideration dictates.

Pinky It doesn't matter at what rate false accusations happen - the fact is that they do, and I have seen the fall out, hence ensuring my son knows there needs to be explicit consent. I am still not clear on why I shouldn't be attempting to arm my son with the knowledge of some of the pitfalls that are out there

Tell him what your wants but to the chances of being accused accused rape are so slight its probably pointless "warning him of the pitfalls" (of what? Raping women?). You are more likely like I said talking to him about his higher chance of being raped by a man. By sitting down and having the false allegation discussion you are planting the idea in a man's head that women are untrustworthy, perpetuating a rape myth and generally doing him a disservice.

Re the non existent grey area - I'll say it again, people who think these exist and act as a barrier need to abatain from sex.

I'm gonna take a a wild guess and say you have never seen a case at work where the female accuser was convicted? I though you believed in innocent until proven guilty? Clearly with you this only work a one way. Complete hypocrite,it really worries me my DD could be taught like someone like you one day

This is more a response to some of the posts on the first couple of pages than the recent ones.

When I was a first year student (quite a long time ago now) I got very very drunk at a ball due to some insane shot competition - drunker than I'd ever been, but was functioning OK according to everyone else. I don't remember much of the night but what I do remember is kind of snapshots, there was this guy I quite fancied, we were flirting, we went back to his room in halls, had sex, and then I sort of came to my senses just after we'd finished and then I started crying and wouldn't stop. I got my stuff together and left his room, staggered back to my own room, crying all the way, bumped into a few people I knew and must have told them what happened. The next day what happened was common knowledge and the story had taken on a life of its own. The word rape was used even though I had never named it that myself, and the guy in question had a really hard time for a while, though I did my best to put the story straight from my point of view. I still don't consider it rape in my case, he'd been drinking too and had a justifiable belief that I was fully aware and consenting. I was so distressed afterwards, I believe, because I was out of my mind drink and confused about what had happened and how.

I can see how in some cases a narrative might develop which then snowballs - perhaps that might be the basis for some of these rare 'false rape' accusations, but I do think they are very rare. In my case there was no way I would have taken it further even when I was feeling conflicted about what happened - my main feelings were shock and self-disgust.

"Misandrist"

scary you didn't answer my earlier question - how do you know the allegations you are talking about are false?

Scaryteacher the fact is, if a woman wanted to make up a malicious allegation about your son then no amount of consent would prevent this. If women are as malicious as you make out, throwing around false allegations.

You all seem to base your arguments around, educated middle class men and women seeking consent in safe loving environments, which is fine. What about the thousands of men and women who do not fall into that category?

Yet in scarys posts universities they are dealing with young people who away from home for the first time, being sexually active (yet inexperienced), drinking more and taking drugs, and undoubtedly unable to deal with the seriousness and implications of an accusation in the cold light of day. Your idea of consent may not be the same as anothers.

Comforting I'm not middle class and in my late teens I've had drunken encounters with inexperienced men, I was inexperienced too. They all managed to not rape me and to stop if I asked.

I was raped when I was 21 by my then boyfriend. He was 19. He held me really tightly, I said I didn't want to from the offset and we'd been arguing. I had tears in my eyes but I couldn't move because he was so heavy and he held me still.

It never went to court because there was not enough evidence. He was a good looking, charming young man, not many people believed he'd be capable of rape. They didn't know he regularly bit, squeezed and strangled me behind closed doors. He might have been young but he knew exactly what he was doing and even checked if I was going to report him.

It makes me sick that people like you and scary excuse men like this.

So how "working class" do men need to be to not bother with consent?

Does it matter if the woman he rapes is middle class?

Or are we back to "if her Daddy's rich take her out for a meal, if her Daddy's poor just do what you feel"?

Yes what does class have to do with rape?

comforting class has nothing whatsoever to do with it, that just smacks of straw clutching to me. Middle class white men rape too and some apparently believe they got consent - I'm looking at you Brock Turner who thought a passed out woman wanted to be sodomised with a foreign object behind a dumpster, and his dad who called this "15 minutes of action" . I've never met a working class man that stupid.

Consent is NOT subjective. My idea of consent is exactly the same as someone's else's. It's really not hard to figure out and I'll say it again grossly offensive to even working class thickos (if that's what you're implying).

Good point marble

Can I just say too that even if a woman strips down to the point where she asked with legs akimbo, then changes her mind in a split second, THAT IS OK. She's not a prick tease or whatever vile terms you want to use. It's not ideal for the man, but do you know what, tough fucking shit. How about we teach men that putting their cocks in things isn't of paramount importance they're led to believe it is. How about scary teaches her son that of a woman wants to stop at any point, or gives signs of bmnot being I tonit, he stops. But no, apparently it's more important her lads gets his end away and doesn't get accused of rape

Light I'm sorry for your experience but can I ask why you stayed with your boyfriend if he bit, squeezed and strangled you? (Genuine)

Do Your idea of consent isn't everyones. A young man not realise an unresponsive partner is not consenting. A young woman may be embarrassed and inexperienced and just lay there - but she is consenting.

Light please don't answer that you're not obliged too. It fucks me right off when people say "abused? Why didn't you just leave?". If only this genius was around to tell you at th time that was possible so little education around abuse!