My 12 year old DD shouldn't have to be subject to sexism and unwanted male attention so frequently

[crispandcheesesanwichplease]

This post has arisen from a discussion on an earlier thread about single sex v co-ed schools.

My 12 year old DD frequently gets called a slag or slut by boys at school. This is for little things like being in someone's way in the corridor. The boys at school regularly rate the girls on their 'fitness' in public and comment about their breasts. Some of the girls, including my DD, keep their sweatshirts on in school even when it's really hot to stop boys from commenting on their breasts.

I regularly see adult men eyeing her up when we're out and about (first time was when she was 9). She's a normal, young for her age, 12 year old. She doesn't wear any make up or clothing that could make her look older her look older. She's not particularly well developed physically for her age. She just look likes a kid.

She said she feels like a piece of meat sometimes and the boys at school only rate girls in terms of their physical appearance and 'sexiness'.

I consider myself to be a feminist and have raised her to think critically about gender stereotypes but despite this she thinks it's just something that she must endure, particularly at school.

I've contacted some other mums of girls who attend the same school to find out their experiences and am seriously thinking about approaching school when I have a fuller picture.

Is this awful culture of sexism and hypersexualised behaviour standard in secondary schools these days?

Any teachers/school staff out there with advice on how such a culture can be changed in schools?

I think the school needs to know this, and to encourage an atmosphere of respect for others among the pupils. This should not be happening in a place where she has no choice about whether she is there or not. She has no means of avoiding this or of escape, and those who are in charge of this compulsory venue should be dealing with it.

There are general studies lessons, form tutor sessions etc. where this could be discussed. It could also form part of an assembly and the message could be conveyed loud and clear that any girl who finds herself addressed in an inappropriate way is expected to report this to their form tutor.

The Fairy caravan yes its vile behaviour and that's what made me wonder if the types of women who think this is acceptable are the types that raise their lads to do the same to girls.

Not blaming women here for men's behaviour but as a mum of boys I feel it's vital to teach them respect to everyone and not indulge in this behaviour.

You know- when boys at school regularly have girls standing in the corridors in such a way that they can't get past without brushing their cocks against them. When boys are called slags and sluts for showing any interest in sex. When boys are routinely groped on public transport. When boys feel they have to wear jock straps all day every day because girls can't take their eyes off their crotches. When boys are called frigid bitches in the street for not smiling at random women. When mainstream free porn shows men as submissive masturbation aids for women. When Hilary Clinton could talk about young men the way Donald Trump talks about young women and still be in the running for the White House. When all of those things happen, then I might think that this is a problem for boys too. Until then? Yes, it's crap and wrong when boys get a hard time from girls. And they shouldn't get away with it. But that is individual not institutional.

And anyone who can compare a 12 year old girl being sexually harassed by strangers with an adult barman having his arm stroked by a drunk middle aged woman obviously doesn'5 understand the problem.

Thank you BertrandRussell that is a brilliant post.

And anyone who can compare a 12 year old girl being sexually harassed by strangers with an adult barman having his arm stroked by a drunk middle aged woman obviously doesn't understand the problem.

I completely agree, Bertrand.

Please can this not be hijacked by talking about men's experiences.

I would definitely approach the school tbh.
A change is only likely to come if the school are aware of it.
It doesn't happen in my dd co ed school, it wouldn't be tolerated and such behaviour jumped on from the outset.
Teachers must be aware of the situation as it sounds ingrained into the environment of the school.

Totally agree, Bertrand. Brilliant post.

OP, please approach the school and don't take any crap. This is outrageous and should be dealt with the same force as racist incidents.

Bertrand

in no way have I minimised a child being harassed and have repeatedly said that of course it's far more commen for boys and men to harass women. Threads do widen and it's fine on mumsnet to debate generally and my point was harassment for any reason and any age is unacceptable and needs reporting and I was speculating that the sort of middle aged women who harass young men may be the mothers who think it's fine for their sons to do this to women and girls.

I haven't disagreed with any of your posts and urge any parent whose dd is being harassed like this at school to report it. Totally unacceptable.

So I can only assume you have a problem with me as a poster from maybe another thread so won't engage with you anymore.

Ok, Don'tpanic, let me explain what's troubling about your posts:

First of all there is no equivalence between what girls and women receive, on an almost daily basis over their lifetime, to an armstroke by someone who is not at all threatening. The equivalence does, in fact, minimise it. If there was a thread on racism, and someone piped up "well white people experience racism too sometimes, so it goes both ways".

Also, your use of "middle-aged women" - what, are you saying that middle-aged women are so intrinsically unattractive - how dare flirt with a younger man!

Cing depend if you call flirting grabbing another persons crotch and bum. Personally I don't even at my advanced state of middle age. Do you?

Tired or repeating this now but one more time of course there is far more harassment of girls and women by men and boys than the other way around and all harassment is vile

It troubles me you don't seem to agree.

I remember lads at school being so scathing and critical of almost all the girls - only page 3 types were acceptable. Remember thinking at the time how little sense this made - only about 10 women in England would meet their exacting standard and the chances of those supermodels having anything to do with a spotty 14 year old - zero...

Where do some boys get this weird entitled confidence?

For the record, no, I don't consider "grabbing someone's crotch and bum" to be flirting.

And I think, you still don't get it. It's not just that there is more harassment of girls and women - of course there is. But there is no equivalence. An 18 year old boy/young man is not under any physical threat from a "middle-aged" woman. The grabbing is intrusive and rude and absolutely should not happen - nor laughed off by management.

But what is absent from that above scenario is the sickening sense of violation, threat and fear that attends male to female sexual harassment. My teenage goddaughter uses the metaphor "slimed" to describe it. By the time they are 18, females have felt that sickening, degrading feeling over and over again, for fucking years, which affects the way you feel about yourself and the world and your place in it.

This was not, nor could it have been, your son's experience.

Tbh, I wonder how women manage to stay in relationships with men after some of the things I see/hear men do and say.

Thank you all for your posts. I'm a bit overwhelmed by the responses and haven't had a chance to read them all properly yet but will do this evening.

Dont simply by mentioning it you minimise the abuse and harassment girls and women face daily at the hand of males. And that makes you part of the problem, not the solution.

Fantome I salute you. Fantastic posts.

Thank you very much RiverTam!

River I think that's a ridiculous post but we are all entitled to our opinions

I remember school being like this. There were a couple of boys in particular (yr 7-8) that would try and grope me and my friends every day. It would be hands down top, up skirt, looking back it was awful. At the time, I thought it was just normal.

My best friend (who was also targeted) finally told the teachers, but we were too embarrased to make a proper complaint, so nothing happened.

I managed to resolve it myself after a couple of years by getting sweet, sweet revenge. One day, the guy (it had trailed off to just the one by then), came up behind me in the lunch hall. He tried to put his hand down my top (again), I grabbed my chair which I was sat on, and pushed it back as hard as I could. He went flying backwards, into a rubbish bin. He fell over, and the bin which was by now spinning round, ended up dumping rubbish on him. Everyone cheered. He didn't come near me again :-)

I'm not sure what the answer is. If you tell the school, and it gets back to the guys as to why, it may just make it worse for the girls, but if you don't, then it will just continue.

cing I never said it was dear please read my fucking posts.

You said "It's not all one way and we need to remember that." on a thread about the sexual harrasment of a 12 year old girl.

Thanks all of you who have taken time to post on this thread. Your opinions and experiences have been really helpful.

Bruce I'd be really interested to hear in more detail how you organised and confronted your school regarding these issues and the measures school put in place, and timescales regarding them acting on your concerns.

It's interesting to hear that whilst my DD's experiences are common, that there are some schools out there who have tackled the issues successfully. Does anyone else have specific info/experience about a school that has gotten to grips with such awful attitudes?

Me and my DD talked at length last night about me wanting to approach school about it. She was a little reluctant as she didn't want to be seen to be 'rocking the boat'. Again that belief that if the culture is so entrenched then can anything change?. Anyhow I let her read the posts on here this evening and she was reassured that it is a massive issue, which she said at heart she knew, and that approaching school is the right thing to do. (I had already decided that I definitely would but feel happier that she is in agreement)

School broke up for half-term today but she's going to write down her experiences and talk to her trusted female friends and ask them to do the same, anonymously.

I'm still waiting responses from the mum's I contacted, sadly I think some will be of the view that that's life and unpleasant as it is won't want to rock the boat. Also some of them will be reluctant to approach school themselves as parents but I'm used dealing with schools professionally so not afraid to do it.

Also my DD is adopted so I've 10 years experience of battling authority and challenging organisations!

I AM WOMAN, HEAR ME ROAR!!!

Excellent stuff, crisp and crispsDD! Best of British to you both.

Agruffalocrumble so sorry.

Of course it is bad for anyone to be abused or harassed but it is not the same. Fantome post is excellently put but so sad.

I remember being whistled at from the age of 12, and having drivers beep and catcall me and my sister in our school uniforms as we walked to school, and this was in the 80s. It always made me feel really uncomfortable and I hated it. I also remember having boys at school grab my breasts and genitals and it happened to a lot of other girls but the only way we had to fight back was to punch them. The school was not interested.

I also remember doing a Saturday job in a shop when I was 13 and having porn magazines shoved in my face, being groped by middle aged male staff and being told I would be paid less because I was 'a fucking bint'.

It makes me a bit sad now how accepting of this kind of behaviour we were and how we'd just be told to stay out of his way if we said anything.

BTW Bertrand, excellent post, DD agrees too. Well done with that!