My 12 year old DD shouldn't have to be subject to sexism and unwanted male attention so frequently

[crispandcheesesanwichplease]

This post has arisen from a discussion on an earlier thread about single sex v co-ed schools.

My 12 year old DD frequently gets called a slag or slut by boys at school. This is for little things like being in someone's way in the corridor. The boys at school regularly rate the girls on their 'fitness' in public and comment about their breasts. Some of the girls, including my DD, keep their sweatshirts on in school even when it's really hot to stop boys from commenting on their breasts.

I regularly see adult men eyeing her up when we're out and about (first time was when she was 9). She's a normal, young for her age, 12 year old. She doesn't wear any make up or clothing that could make her look older her look older. She's not particularly well developed physically for her age. She just look likes a kid.

She said she feels like a piece of meat sometimes and the boys at school only rate girls in terms of their physical appearance and 'sexiness'.

I consider myself to be a feminist and have raised her to think critically about gender stereotypes but despite this she thinks it's just something that she must endure, particularly at school.

I've contacted some other mums of girls who attend the same school to find out their experiences and am seriously thinking about approaching school when I have a fuller picture.

Is this awful culture of sexism and hypersexualised behaviour standard in secondary schools these days?

Any teachers/school staff out there with advice on how such a culture can be changed in schools?

(One of the) The problem is that many women don't see the problem with lads banter about 'nice tits' etc.

One of my brothers once told me one of his friend's mums once told a group of them about how bitchy and terrible girls were, and to "watch out" or something, I was amazed then but now think it probably isn't that uncommon going by some of the boys I come across.

Gosh defiantly approach the school as this shouldn't be happening.

Both our local high schools are shit hot on this and would take this very seriously.

I would be horrified if my lads behaved like this.

I have to add though one of my lads did bar work through uni and he was constantly harassed and flirted with by groups of middle aged women.

This was laughter off by the managers in a way that wouldn't be if he had been a girl.

It's not all one way and we need to remember that.

Yes, part of the reason why parents don't pick up on it is that a lot of them, men and women/mums and dads, see it as The Natural Order Of Things.

Also, in a lot of cases, the men/dads are also doing it and the women/mums feel quite flattered when a strange man yells, "nice tits" at them. I have a friend who insists it's just, "the way men are". We have fallen out over this on occasion.

And because men have spent their whole lives feeling entitled to behave like this and women have spent their lives being conditioned into accepting it to the extent that they just accept it.

I can tell which of my friends are on MN in real life (none of them) by the staggering things I hear them say.

Some of the attitudes expressed by some of the women I know (and these are highly intelligent, educated and professional women) shock me.

Fantome when I was growing up there were all sorts of 'warnings' about leading boys on and "getting yourself raped" and warnings to boys about girls changing their minds after the fact and crying rape. It's appalling to hear that it hasn't changed

ocelot I addressed it with my son by just talking about it. He came home from school asking, "is it true that... [insert sexist belief]" and we just talked it through. Most of the beliefs can be debunked on logic alone.

As for the rape stuff, I told him about the male friends I have (some of whom he knows) who I have got drunk with, or whose beds I have shared when I have stopped the night, or who have seen my cleavage/legs. I also went through them one by one. "And how many times do you think X has raped me?" "none" "Why? If being drunk/alone with a man/showing some skin is enough to 'get you raped'?" "because X is not a rapist" "exactly" and repeat. It didn't take long for him to understand it.

I also hate the "she is someone's wife/sister/daughter" shit. Actually, a woman deserves to not be harrassed by men, not because she is related to another man, but because she is someone in her own right.

Dontpanicpyke and that is exactly why feminism benefits both men and women.

I have to add though one of my lads did bar work through uni and he was constantly harassed and flirted with by groups of middle aged women.

It's not all one way and we need to remember that.

Okay...but your son was presumably 18+?

The OP's daughter is 12. It's not okay at any age or sex, but they are completely different situations.

Little indeed totally agree. All sexist behaviour should be challenged.

Koala of course it's different in age but not intent.

Touching an 18 year old on the bum and stroking his arm is completely unnaceptable as is behaving despicably to a 12 year old.

Both behaviours are bad but my point is harassment of the girls was treated seriously while his harassment was laughed at.

We need to be clear on this.

I have to add though one of my lads did bar work through uni and he was constantly harassed and flirted with by groups of middle aged women.

This was laughter off by the managers in a way that wouldn't be if he had been a girl.

It's not all one way and we need to remember that.

I completely agree.

DS2(19) is at uni and works part time in a pub. Every shift he is subjected to sexual harassment and has his crotch and arse grabbed. Drunk middle aged women try to force themselves on him all the time. It gets laughed off as banter. If a male looks at one of the women who works there in the wrong one they are thrown out by the bouncers.

I could more or less guarantee that there will be lists in the school where the girls have ranked the boys in order of who they fancy/are sexy/are fit etc.

Behaviour like this isn't unique to boys.

I agree with approaching the school.

I emailed DD's school last year when one of the male students kept making very hurtful remarks about her lack of curves and getting all the boys in the class to laugh at her (she was 15 and looked about 12).

I stated that making sexist remarks about teenage girls and deliberately humiliating them in front of everyone was not appropriate. The school took my concerns seriously and even passed my email on to the behaviour manager and head of year. I asked them to log my concern but take no action unless it occurred again, which, happily, it didn't.

Sorry, but there is no way you can put what SOME boys might receive and what girls get. Any boys in their school uniforms leered at by adult women? Followed? Harassed daily? Sexually assaulted (lots of cases of girls in school uniforms being sexually assaulted walking to and from school recently)? Intimidated by the harassment which could turn aggressive/violent at any point? Constant sexism online from girls being faced by boys? Rape jokes, memes, women who treat men badly being hailed as heroes? It is just NOTHING LIKE the same. My brothers have NEVER faced anything remotely sexist and I and my friends have been getting this shit for ages already and we're only 16. This makes me so enraged, there is just no similarity whatsoever. The way we talk about boys is also NOTHING LIKE how they talk about us, rate us, comment on our bra sizes, call us sluts/hos/skets/slags/frigid bitches/"I'd fuck it" etc. ARGH.

Guessing the middle aged and younger women who act like this are the types that Little describes as some of her friends in that they see this as harmless banter on all sides and that's their mindset?

Harassment of girls is NOT TAKEN SERIOUSLY. No-one cares. You can't do anything about men harassing you on the street, in public, anywhere. We can't do anything about the boys who harass us or talk about us like we're objects. FFS.

Fantome I have to ask, what does sket mean? (clearly showing my age!)

Basically the same as "slut" or "slag". Just another way boys refer to us (our names seem too difficult, "girls" only if being belittling too).

Oh no, Pyke my female friends aren't the type to harrass the men/younger men, just the ones who accept that it's your lot, as a woman, to be on the receiving end of it. They don't see it as harmless banter, and they aren't flattered by it, they just don't think it can change because it's hardwired into men to be like it.

Er I didn't say that it was as commen amongst women as it is with men?

I have sons and daughters and know exactly how often my girls are leered at and of course it's far more than my lads were.

I was simply pointing out that some women, probably those mothers of boys who bring them up to see this is normal, are probably the types who think it's ok to harass and touch young men.

All sexist behViour is vile and of course it's usually directed at women and girls but when it's from women to men it should be taken equally seriously.

Surely we all agree on that?

Fantome nice...

I don't agree. It's not the same when directed from women to men. Firstly, it's so rare, secondly, it's not threatening like it is for us. I have been terrified being commented on and followed by boys and men in the street, brought close to tears by rape jokes and memes being shared by boys, been scared even being on a quiet street during the day and seeing men look me up and down, we are constantly harassed, assaulted, belittled, even killed for our sex by men WHATEVER we do and WHEREVER we are and it is just not remotely similar.

I was sexually assaulted at school when I was 14 by two of my own friends and that was in 2008. I'm terrified for my DD's in the world that we live in now.

Yes it works both ways but this is a thread about the impact on young girls in particular. Yes, any sexual harassment is unacceptable in either gender but I don't fear for boys the way I do for my DDs.

Little - it's horrific. And like I said these boys are very privileged and well educated, it's not acceptable whoever does it, but it makes you fear for the future.

Fantome it's taken very seriously at my dds school and certainly now where my lads work in the finance industry any reports of harassment of anyone for any reason is taken seriously. Are you st school and being treated like this because if you are you must report it.

It has to be challenged by us all wherever and whenever it happens.

Some industries seem to attract idiots but I do think and hope things are gradually changing for the better.

I don't see how you stop men leering at women. I wish I knew as when I see a middle aged man leering at my beautiful girls I could cheerfully punch him In the face.

I was on the train the other day with teenage boys and the way in which they were rating girls was appalling. Unfortunately I felt too intimidated to say anything but really wish I had now (the girls weren't there but still).

No again I totally agree and fear more for my dds than my dss but harassment is not just banter. That's used to shut down complaints and to make women,and for that matter men,feel they are boring or staid.