DH being U about baby in restaurant?

[StripedSwad]

We are on holiday with 3 month BF baby. There's a fancy restaurant on site which we are booked in to

we have his mother with us, who will babysit, but she would need to bring baby down to us if he needs to be fed. Restaurant has said no to this as is adults only.

DH thinks this is terrible and wants to complain as baby will only be down a short while and purely for feeding, whereas I think it's just one of those things you accept with a baby and we will just have to eat elsewhere. So who is right?

Restless.
Less shock and pearl clutching and wounded feelings and more attention to what I actually write would go a long way.

NNChange
LOL at the idea that bottle feeding dads are so ubiquitous and so sidelined and inconvenienced by 'adult' only places that they deserve mention. Women who breastfeed otoh, find themselves looking at training a breastfed baby to take a bottle from the earliest days if they think they might find themselves wishing to go out for an evening.

I note the whole 'what about the menz' angle here, and not for the first time, coming from you. It confirms the very strong suspicion I have that you don't like or respect women much.

KidLorne, my feminist position is that women can have babies and also enjoy the benefits of being adult humans. They can have babies and not lose their career trajectory.
Yours is that women can have one or the other but not both. Meanwhile precious few men are in the position of losing anything because of the choice to have a baby. They don't face the career problems. They don't face the problems of trying to work either in or away from the office and pump, or try to arrange for a babysitter or childminder who knows how to handle breast milk if they work or if they want to go out for an evening, and all the other details that women face.
Your so-called feminist position identifies babies and children as the enemy, when it is in fact the patriarchal system that favours men and actively penalises women for their biology that is the problem. When you patronise restaurants that ban babies you contribute to the problem of breastfeeding women being sidelined and effectively asked to choose baby or adult company, and you contribute to the misapprehension of the problem (babies are not it).

When I stopped breastfeeding my DCs is none of your business and not at all relevant to this thread, NNChange.

Because what's relevant is actually what you write math. You're so blind to the fact that you've offended huge swathes of people and carry on sprouting bullshit that everyone else can see through.

Very late to the thread but reading incredulously...

Math you claim your position is feminist- supporting the rights of breast feeding women- however it is very inconsiderate of another group of women who are also sidelined by society- those who can't conceive.

Additionally I note that you have not yet addressed those places where it is inappropriate for children to be present- betting shops, tattoo parlours, nightclubs etc

You're full of it. Yours is the only opinion that matters, everyone else is wrong and you only take the parts of their posts that fuel your hate for anyone else that disagrees with you. I shared this thread with a friend of mine tonight. She had two miscarriages a few years ago and for a while she found it hard to be around babies. When she read the bit about women like this needing professional help. She laughed. At you. She shook her head and said "it beggars belief how ignorant some people are to other peoples feelings" She felt sorry for you. She has far more compassion that me.

It;s nuts to suggest that a baby should be allowed everywhere. What about workplaces? Many are totally unsuitable.

I had three miscarriages myself, RestlessTraveller, as I stated upthread. It was a horrible experience and I sought professional help to deal with it, and paid for it. I am sure your compassionate friend saw my post concerning the MCs I suffered.

Wondering what her thoughts are about the term 'child free' with all its connotations of liberation from some unbearable or horrible experience?

You seem to be taking this thread extremely personally. I am not responsible for that.

god it must be awful being math.

The sidelining of women who can't conceive is a different question entirely. If you intend to use the sidelining of women who can't conceive as a reason to have 'child-free' spaces why not go all the way and ban children and babies from appearing in public at all? What happens if a woman who can't have children happens to sit beside one on a bus on her way to the restaurant that bans babies?

I am not suggesting that babies go to work with their parents, Mindtrope. I am suggesting that restaurants that ban babies are discriminating against breastfeeding women, sidelining them, and promoting the creeping cultural idea that babies and children are a problem that keep their mothers from being human.

math you still haven't addressed the point about some places in society being unsuitable for babies and children.

Nightclubs
some pubs
tattoo parlours
High court
many workplaces
cinemas showing 18 movies.

You're setting up a straw man there math.

No one expects children to be invisible but having a range of eateries to choose from is not sidelining any group of women. Few restaurants are child free leaving plenty of choice for those who wish to eat out and breastfeed. The same applies to other venues. Is it so harmful that someone who doesn't want to be around children for an evening out has somewhere to go?

Are all of those places bursting at the seams with mothers, Mindtrope? Do you often see mothers fighting furiously to be allowed into those establishments, with their babies?

It seems to me that mothers are very well able to use their own judgement as to whether they will bring their babies somewhere. (NNChange's assertions notwithstanding.) As adult humans, I would expect no less.

Workplaces - already discussed.

Yes, it is harmful, as evidenced by the comments on this thread where the terms 'human', 'sophisticated' and the like are used to describe mothers eating a meal away from their babies and meals eaten away from babies. These are not neutral terms. The association of mothers with mush brains and not being fit for or able to engage with polite society unless they leave their babies behind cannot be ignored. It is a very deep prejudice that has reared its ugly head here.

I breastfed my son all over the place but would not have expected or wanted to take him to a 'fancy' restaurant. There are plenty of other places you can go to eat where you can take a baby. This is one of the reasons why it's a good idea to be able to express milk and get your baby to take it from a bottle occasionally so you can have a few hours off in an adult environment and someone else can feed them.

No math- it takes a society to raise children.

Your view is idealistic. Children's welfare is something we all need to take care of. Many parents would take their kids into tattoo parlours or to the pub while they get sloshed or to a unsuitable workplace if they had no childcare.

I grew up in a very deprived area, it was not pleasant. I saw many instances of child neglect and abuse by parents. Laws exist to protect children.

Living in a Boden world is not valid for many familes.

I don't think it has much to do with fancy or sophisticated. Sometimes I want a meal out with DH or friends in a quiet and relaxed atmosphere. This means I want to go somewhere where people are not drunk and lairy and there are no crying babies or tantrumming toddlers. It's nice to have the choice.

Equally those who want to get drunk have plenty of places they can go. So too do those who want to bring their children- it can be as sophisticated as they like.

This is one of the reasons why it's a good idea to be able to express milk and get your baby to take it from a bottle occasionally so you can have a few hours off in an adult environment and someone else can feed them.

Hoops breastfeeding women must jump through in order to get a night out...

What about a single mother who can't afford both a babysitter and the price of a dinner?

Or are we only talking about Boden people here?

It takes a society to raise children

Society therefore shouldn't mind when children join it for dinner.

Society shouldn't tell the mothers of children that they are only welcome out and about without their children. It should support mothers and not see children without their context of parents and family.

Society should want the best for children. Do we want to encourage breastfeeding or not? Do we want to encourage women who see themselves as 'sophisticated' and 'human' to have babies?

I'll get jumped on for this.

I don't give a shit if people breastfeed or bottle feed. I don't give a shit if a restaurant does or doesn't allow children.

If I went to a restaurant on an evening (after a certain time) and there was a small child there, I wouldn't give a shit if the child was loud or naughty. Not my problem. What I would be wondering (and yes, I'd be judging) is why a parent chose to take a small child out to a potentially busy, loud restaurant when, in my opinion, they should be in bed asleep, undisturbed unless it's for a quiet feed.

As parents we have a responsibility to choose suitable times and places for our children-certain restaurants/venues just don't fit the bill. As parents we put our children first, not our own needs or agendas.

And yes, some venues specify "no children". Some holiday companies do the same. They want to appeal to a certain clientele and I feel they have the right to do that. It's got bollocks all to do with breastfeeding and a fuck load to do with making money. Not everything is about fucking breastfeeding.

Times children 'should' be asleep are very culture specific.

Of course 'child free' restaurants are about making money. Many, many suckers are only too happy to pay for the extra cachet. But should everything be about making money? Is there a public interest in making restaurants and other venues welcome breastfeeding babies and children? Is making money the only value we care about? How does that sit with Mindtrope's comments about society raising a child?

Strip clubs appeal to a certain clientele. Lad mags, porn, etc - all about making money and all hurt a class of people. Is making money the only consideration to take into account? Do the owners and purveyors have the right to hurt a class of people so that they can make money?

Not everything is about [expletive deleted] breastfeeding

Hear hear.

I'm not taking this thread personally because the rest of the world knows that it's perfectly reasonable to have child-free places. What I do take personally is your condescending attitude to anyone (and for that read everyone else on this thread) including me who think differently to you. I take it personally when you insult my choices that I am fully entitled to make. I take I personally when you infer that I am stupid. When you seems to be unable to understand anyone else's reasoning on here.

Yes my friend read about your miscarriages. That's what made her laugh, that a person could be so unaware of other people's feelings on the subject. That the world contains people like you who pour scorn on other people's sorrow. What else could she do? If we took you seriously we'd just want to give up.

It is about breastfeeding if you are the breastfeeding mother excluded from the restaurant you want to go to because some owner is on to a good thing and society allows this because money-making interests trump all other considerations. But who cares about women who are neither sophisticated nor even human...

Define "hurt"? I am a mum and I don't find it remotely hurtful that certain restaurants wouldn't allow my baby in. If that's their business model then that's their business model. I really don't see how that's hurtful when there are thousands of restaurants that do allow babies and children to dine. I would just choose to dine elsewhere and they wouldn't get my business.

What does your 'friend' think of the implications of the term 'child free', since she is such a sensitive soul?

"it beggars belief how ignorant some people are to other peoples feelings" She felt sorry for you. She has far more compassion that me.

What beggars belief is the stigma you have apparently absorbed and never questioned regarding getting help for emotional or psychological issues.

What is your problem with professional help or seeking it when you have an issue that is negatively affecting your life?

There is no shame in seeking professional help, and if you yourself (and others who howled in outrage at this suggestion) did not feel deeply that there was you would not have greeted my suggestion with such anger.

If you broke an arm would you go to A&E?
Experiencing emotional or psychological problems due to inability to conceive and be around babies and children is no different.

What a pity there is such ignorance on display here wrt emotional and psychological difficulties, and the help that is available that can do so much to improve quality of life.