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AIBU?

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Original poster

To do a straw poll on whether you're happy with where Brexit is heading?

999 replies

Bearbehind · 16/10/2016 16:57

This isn't about the whys and wherefores of how we got here but, since no one I speak to IRL is happy with the path Brexit is leading us down and I've just seen a poll in the Metro strongly in favour of abandoning Brexit it got me wondering how wide spread it is.

This isn't supposed to be an argument thread or even how you voted, just Are you happy heading towards a hard Brexit

Yes or No

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13
EleanorRigby123 · 23/10/2016 15:29

An election will not solve anything. The Tories will win - currently polling at 47%.

ukpollingreport.co.uk/

S ame divides will remain.

caroldecker · 23/10/2016 15:30

There is a strong democratic argument for Brexit - the pledge to honour the referendum result was included in the Conservative party manifesto. I expect many Remainers now complaining (not necessarily on this thread) voted Conservative. The only thing parliament can debate is whether to invoke Article 50 or not, as the outcome of any negotiation is dependent on the other countries and they will not talk until it is invoked.
Whilst government's do not always honour their manifesto commitments, it is politically very difficult for any Conservative MP's to vote against. The Salisbury convention deals with any HoL issues.
Therefore you either rip up the UK democratic rulebook or Article 50 happens - I don't know what else you want parliament to debate?

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 23/10/2016 15:32

If there was a GE according to polls released last week they would win by a landslide.

There are splits in the Tories over Brexit, but remember not all of Labour including Corbyn are for EU either.

caroldecker · 23/10/2016 15:39

Magik There are many forms of free market - I do not know which one you claim to know I follow

Smallfox I did discuss some amendments/flexibility could be made to EU employment rules for SME's - I think we were discussing a self-employed bus driver wanting to drive 2 hours a day, 7 day a week and this was not allowed as EU law required a 48 hour rest period. My point was 14 hours driving a week was not excessive. I did not say I wanted to remove EU employment law.

If you want to discuss the NHS, as I said we actually have an efficient healthcare system. The problem the world faces as people live longer and we have more medical advances and treatments is how you ration healthcare. The US uses wealth, we use NICE and time, other countries have a mix of approaches. The NHS is not free at point of use (opticians, dentists, prescription charges) and around 60% of NHS money currently goes to private service providers.(basically everything except the wages). The balance of payments and service providers could change, but the debate should be honest about how we should ration healthcare.

MagikarpetRide · 23/10/2016 15:51

carol in the grand scheme of things then that our own market is only considered about 50% free. The working financial models for brexit work on us becoming more free. We're actually almost as free as we can get when you discount nationalised industries and fuel prices. How do you anticipate we achieve the necessary amount of freeing without fundamentally changing the nature of nationalised industries?

Or do you think this is where controlling our tax will help, as we can raise money that way? Perhaps fat taxes etc?

MagikarpetRide · 23/10/2016 15:52

Is that not then that. Confused

Original poster
Bearbehind · 23/10/2016 16:03

There is a strong democratic argument for Brexit - the pledge to honour the referendum result was included in the Conservative party manifesto

Maybe, but what does 'honouring the referendum result' actually mean.

It doesn't even mean the same thing to all Leavers which is why the mantra is Brexit means Brexit- it's meaningless but all encompassing at the same time.

We could get out of this mess by adopting a damage limitation exercise or we could plough on with Hard Brexit and all its consequences, either, or anything in between, could be interpreted as 'honouring the referendum result' if spun correctly.

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Valentine2 · 23/10/2016 16:06

pooh
I have tried to find out what Corbyn was for and against in EU but he is very clear about Labour's official party line and that is Remain. So that is the end of story I guess.

Valentine2 · 23/10/2016 16:08

Sorry posted too soon.
So basically that's what I think Labour's official line is. Corbyn or not Corbyn, I know a hell of a lot of people now who will vote Labour (includes me) just to somehow push Tories out because this damage is really getting out of control now. Besides, referendum was advisory and that's what our constitution says. So I don't get this "will of people" thing at all.

Valentine2 · 23/10/2016 16:10

either, or anything in between, could be interpreted as 'honouring the referendum result' if spun correctly.
^THIS

birdybirdywoofwoof · 23/10/2016 16:12

I believe we have to accept the referendum result.

I also believe it is absolutely the end of Britain as we know it- we are about to enter a period of enormous decline. This is a turning point in history- but the people have spoken. The best I can do is equip my kids with skills so they can leave if they want.

tiggytape · 23/10/2016 16:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
Bearbehind · 23/10/2016 16:15

I believe we have to accept the referendum result.

But what does 'accepting the result' mean?

There's not actually anything definitive to 'accept'.

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smallfox2002 · 23/10/2016 16:19

Is there a strong mandate for hard brexit though? The Conservative manifesto said that it was committed to staying in.

birdybirdywoofwoof · 23/10/2016 16:23

I mean that's it- the idea that WE can negotiate a way through this is essentially faulty. We will be out of the single market and in economic wilderness. I genuinely can't see a way round it that will be acceptable to the EU.

caroldecker · 23/10/2016 16:34

The referendum result means invoking Article 50 and leaving the EU. Even if everyone in the UK was united on the structure they want in place afterwards, it is dependent on negotiation.
There is an argument for having a parliamentary debate at the end of the process which says: This is what we have negotiated, so accept this or nothing.

Original poster
Bearbehind · 23/10/2016 16:44

There is an argument for having a parliamentary debate at the end of the process which says: This is what we have negotiated, so accept this or nothing.

Eh? What possible argument is there for doing that. It's completely pointless.

Once a50 is triggered it's a ticking time bomb.

We can't negiotate trade deals officially until after we leave. A50 just decides how we leave.

There will be nothing to debate at the end of A50, whatever we get we're stuck with.

It's not a forgone conclusion a50 will ever be invoked- DC said it would happen on 24th June, it didn't. If that's what people voted for and it didn't happen a precedent has been set for reneging on the process.

In the government can show enough people what a fuck up it will be by continually pushing back a50, making sure there's lots of bad news in the mean time and getting it debated in parliament before it is invoked there is the potential it might never happen.

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Bitofacow · 23/10/2016 16:45

One of the main arguments in support of our unwritten constitution is that it is flexible. So I am baffled when people say in a loud, strident voice "democracy is X so we must Y".

Within the traditions of the UK, and with legal checks and balances Parliament can do what it wants.

If there is a will to avoid invoking article 50 a way can be found.

tiggytape · 23/10/2016 16:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
Bearbehind · 23/10/2016 17:01

of course, if we do leave but there is a will in future to rejoin, that too can come about.

Whilst I might be slightly insane by thinking a50 will never be invoked, you'd have to be completely delusional to think once we've left we could go back Hmm

The EU would just laugh in our faces.

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birdybirdywoofwoof · 23/10/2016 17:04

I have to agree with tiggy.

'Taking back control' is what the people chose. They are not stupid- they were warned/it was explained that it would be economically disastrous but that's what they want. We have to give that to them.

tiggytape · 23/10/2016 17:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
Bearbehind · 23/10/2016 17:27

tiggy I wouldn't matter what mandate a future government had- do you honestly think that the EU would let us back in after this fiasco?

People have long memories- There's no way we'll re-enter the EU in the living memory of most of those who voted to Leave.

Do people seriously think we can just dip in and out as we please?

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tiggytape · 23/10/2016 17:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
Bearbehind · 23/10/2016 17:46

tiggy I see what you're saying but it worries me that people might think EU membership is something we can opt in and out of.

The level of arrogance displayed by leavers who assured us that the EU would roll over and let us have want we want because 'they need us more than we need them' astounded me.

It's not actually a huge leap from that to think there's an element who think we'll give this a go and if it doesn't work out we'll go back.

It just never really occurred to me that people would be so fucking stupid that they'd think that was the back stop to all this.

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