To do a straw poll on whether you're happy with where Brexit is heading?

[Bearbehind]

This isn't about the whys and wherefores of how we got here but, since no one I speak to IRL is happy with the path Brexit is leading us down and I've just seen a poll in the Metro strongly in favour of abandoning Brexit it got me wondering how wide spread it is.

This isn't supposed to be an argument thread or even how you voted, just Are you happy heading towards a hard Brexit

Yes or No

No not happy.

Sorry. Missed birdy's comment.

TBH I think remainers are wishing bloody hard right now!

we shouldn't assume that all leavers were too stupid to understand the issues

chubby that isn't my default position however when leavers like surfer actually say they don't give a shit about the economy and just want to control immigration, for no specific reason, then it's pretty hard not to fall back on the assumption your quote is actually true in some circumstances.

I completey disagree that 'we just have to leave or elected representatives to get on with it'

How on earth is that 'taking back control'?

It's just passing control to a bunch of fuckwits who appear to have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

Carol, your point regarding SMEs, in a previous conversation you said you agreed with removing EU employment laws because they cost SMEs a lot of money.

Fuck that

Oh and when the economy tanks, it will take SMEs with it so you won't have to worry about it.

Glad to see surfer was here again, contibuting nothing but whinging about wicked remainers.

ChubbyBubby - I think yours is one of the more interesting posts on this thread.
I was and still am a reluctant Remainer. But I accept that politically it is not possible to ignore the outcome of the referendum. And that is Cameron's fault. He took a reckless gamble and lost. And we should be blaming him, not those who voted out.
I think though that there is now a tendency by remainers to idealise the EU. But there is a huge democratic deficit. The leadership is poor and has no democratic mandate. Juncker was a lowest common denominator candidate - and his behaviour in this crisis demonstrates his lack of competence. Schulz does not even have the backing of Germany. Tusk is OK as far as he goes - but that is not very far.
The Euro project is doing deep damage to large parts of Europe and will continue to do so if there is no move towards political union. But the French and Germans don't want that so it is not clear how that circle can be squared.
The lack of a coherent Russia policy has allowed Putin to do what he wants in Syria and the subsequent handling of the migration crisis has been lamentable. Angela Merkel's personal decision - backed neither by Germans or her own party- to let millions in probably accounts for at least 5% of the Brexit vote.
But we are definitely in for a rocky few years. Further referenda on the detail would be pointless as once we trigger Article 50 we will not be able to dictate what that detail will be - the other 27 members states and the European Parliament will be deciding much of that. Ditto a UK Parliamentary vote on any final outcome. It will not matter what the UK Parliament says - they will have to accept the deal that is offered or leave with no deal at all.

Bear
Its great to see how so many people are trying hard to stop this downright destruction of Uk economy.bless you and your stamina. And all the Remainers around here (despite feeling like recording machines repeating the same questions to Leavers over and over again).
I have been on the Guardian and one Leaver voter (who expressly said he wasn't happy how he was being "bullied") came out with this : since UK hasn't actually left the UK yet, the tanking of £ is NOT related to Brexit hence the Remainers are lying

valentine that is hysterical! Shame it's actually so tragic too.

I think representative democracy is imperfect Bearbehind but on balance my view is that it's the best system. The referendum didn't go the way you wanted or the way that I, nor most people in my social circle anticipated, what's to say that further referendums on terms of brexit would go the way you'd want? I just think that trying to reach consensus on negotiating strategy is impracticable and given how divided opinion is on this many people will be unhappy no matter what the outcome. Some people will have voted for remain and some for leave on spurious or ill thought through reasons and both sides can be goad and posture. I think we're in for some difficult economic times and I do feel very worried about what the future holds, I just hope we can make brexit work I the long run and that the economy will eventually recover.

chubby I am not sure a new referendum would help either, largely as this was wasn't legally binding. However I believe strongly that our elected representatives should be able to vote in this, and vote with conscience not party line. At the moment this is not happening. We need to keep pressure up in our MPs so they can try to get the best for all of the UK. Whether that's no brexit or some form of brexit.

"I think though that there is now a tendency by remainers to idealise the EU. But there is a huge democratic deficit. The leadership is poor and has no democratic mandate"

When the current leaders of an incumbent government were not in their positions a year ago, and are trying to force through this thing without parliamentary approval, on the back of a 3% majority followed by a campaign of post truth arguments from one side, I'd be careful about discussing .

The Euro project may have its flaws but again, nothing is quite as flawed as the plans to remove us from the EU free market. The Russia point you make is conflating a world issue with simply being an EU one, as is the one on refugees.

Sorry, still a bad idea.

chubby where have I said I want another referendum?

That's not at all what I want. Something so complicated should never have been put to a public vote, voting again won't change that.

I would like more people to stand up and say this isn't what they voted for if that is the truth of it.

If Nissan decides not to build the Qashqai in Sunderland next month I think that will be a very important milestone in this saga.

A lot of people in Sunderland voted Leave because they used it as a protest vote, if they get cold hard proof that was a bad decision, in the form of imminent job losses, I hope the mood changes further towards realising this is a really really bad idea.

I'm not convinced we'll ever actually invoke a50. TM keeps quoting 'the will of the people'. I might be being unrealistic here but I'm hoping that actually means if the 'will of the people' is seen to shift away from hard Brexit then we might be able to salvage the situation.

My best guess would be that some people's views will change when and if the economic consequences of Brexit start to bite, but I wonder how we'll actually know what the will of the people is if not via a referendum or parliamentary election. I think one thing the referendum taught me is that my own little social bubble is not representative of the wider electorate, nor is mumsnet. I was surprised when I went to work the morning after the election to realise that there were people who I worked with who had voted leave, I think I'd made a lot of assumptions that the quieter members of the team shared the same views as the more vocal team members.

I wonder how we'll actually know what the will of the people is if not via a referendum or parliamentary election.

I suspect that if for example Nissan does decide not to build in Sunderland, those affected will find a way to make their voices heard.

Where is this thread going? Discussing Cameron's decision to hold a referendum, or saying we should have had a 10% majority, doesn't help. Doesn't help us now.
I'm not even sure where Theresa May is going with this. Anyone else 100% clear on her motives, directions, objectives etc? Haven't seen anything that's lay it out. Nope? Thought not.
Can't comment on whether I'm happy or not, because I don't even know where she's (her plus Government, plus powers that be) planning on taking us.

oblomov, the thread was never intended to 'go' anywhere. Just to see who was happy with the current state of play.

The fact you can't even comment on how happy you are is testament to the fuck up it actually is.

Comments about this being Cameron's fault for holding the referendum in the first place piss me off too. It's too late for that but its not too late for Leavers to tell us whether this is going how they wanted and why in order to try and convince the 90% of us on here who can only see it as an unfolding nightmare.

It's difficult though, even if Nissan pull production and there's lots of protests in that area how would we know if that would that constitute a decisive shift in the will of the people? The referendum didn't go the way I'd hoped but I'm uneasy about the result being overturned on the basis of which lobby groups shout the loudest. I wonder if May will call an election once she has a more detailed plan around Brexit to see if she can get a mandate for this? If she didn't get a majority though I think that would raise questions about the legitimacy of the plan and where we'd go from there.

Is this good news too?

Another kick against the 'establishment'?

I see what you're saying chubby but, given Leave voters voted for an endless multitude of reasons, there is no consensus on what leave looks like and yet TM has decided that, for now, immigration is the be all and end all, there is room for manoeuvre.

It does seem like immigration is the be all and end all of the debate at the moment and yet it didn't feature highly in my own reasons for contemplating voting leave. DH, who was a more decisive remainder than me, thinks that everyone who voted leave is (at least a closet) racist. None of the leavers at work said that immigration was their main concern but maybe that's more about not wanting to appear bigoted than their actual thinking. I think it would be a shame if negotiations hinge only on the boarders issue.

The [roblem is chubby, that the further away we get from the ref, the more any of the leave reasons for voting are proved to be invalid.

Democracy and sovereignty ? Nope.
Free trade deals? Nope
Money for the NHS? Nope
Banks won't leave? Nope

So major banks leaving UK in New Year (thanks for the link WInky). Great news isn't it.

chubby, even if immigration is further up the list of what leavers actually want than they're willing to admit, the problem, highlighted by this survey is that most of them aren't willing to pay even a minimal price to reduce immigration.

It's seem very clear to me that, when pushed, people will chose to look after number one and, if they aren't directly affected by immigration but will feel the impact of reducing it by a reduction of cash in their own pocket, it will suddenly become a non-issue to them. unless you're loaded like surfers DH is, in which case you can afford to pay a price for your prejudices

I'm not picking on her, just using her as an example although I'll stop seeng as she's agreed not to come back so can't defend herself (not that she ever attempted to).

I think all that May has left to do now is to call a general election based on this mess as an excuse. I can't get my head around this though: if there is a general election called right now, which party will support what? Let's say Labour will definitely be pro EU. UKIP the opposite. What will the Tories do, specially considering it's their shit mainly and we are all worse off in the new year already even if May announces right now that it was all a bad dream. I am confused on this.