To do a straw poll on whether you're happy with where Brexit is heading?

[Bearbehind]

This isn't about the whys and wherefores of how we got here but, since no one I speak to IRL is happy with the path Brexit is leading us down and I've just seen a poll in the Metro strongly in favour of abandoning Brexit it got me wondering how wide spread it is.

This isn't supposed to be an argument thread or even how you voted, just Are you happy heading towards a hard Brexit

Yes or No

Magik The point I would take from Tiggy's post is that Remainers do not want to ruled by a UK government and Leavers do.
Your post argues that politicians and voters cannot be trusted, so a central rule-set is required. This may be valid if the central rule-set was fixed (although I would disagree), but without a fixed point, I prefer a set-up where we are able to actively vote for change in this country on a regular basis. This is, IMO, preferable to a much slower, less responsive EU.

carol I actually don't think tiggy has said that at all. She has a habit of not bunching people together into groupings like that. Some Remainers feel it, I've seen it argued myself but certainly not all.

And you're misreading me, as I've not said the government's are untrustworthy, I'll ignore the comment on voters as its goady. I asked whether they would change enough so we would see benefit from it, as in would we realistically see a change? So whether its 'EU regulated VAT' or UK's own version are we going to see a difference? Because the truth is we still need that money, possibly more given how services are creaking. We gave a little of our control for inter-trade benefits, will there be a difference enough to make it worth losing those benefits?

A review of our voting system possibly is and is something that both some leavers and some remainers support

Unfortunately that is unlikely to ever happen, why would a party in power enact legislation that would make it harder for them to be in power.

Unfortunately that is unlikely to ever happen, why would a party in power enact legislation that would make it harder for them to be in power.
They may do if there's enough noise from a coherent party that scares them but realistically they don't think they'll lose a vote on it

No. Absolutely 100 percent no.

Mother My point is they currently cannot change even a small part of the rules, such as zero rating of sanitary products. We also have the anomaly of e-books being standard rate and books zero rated because e-books were not on the exempted list in the early 70's.
Of course it is not sufficient for you, as you voted Remain. It is, however, a reasonable area to vote Leave on.
The larger policy choice of indirect vs direct taxation or changing rates on certain products to target certain consumers or markets is also not open to the government.
I also like the FPTP system as it does allow dramatic policy changes - I think it is one of the reasons we have been successful as a country because sometimes big shifts are necessary.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tampon-tax-david-cameron-announces-end-to-vat-on-sanitary-products-in-house-of-commons-a6944371.html

Umm Cameron did negotiate the fact that he could change VAT rates.

" It is, however, a reasonable area to vote Leave on."

Yeah if you consider relatively minor changes to taxation laws a major reason to trash the economy, its just fine.

My point is they currently cannot change even a small part of the rules, such as zero rating of sanitary products.
This is true in the sense that independently we cannot currently do this.

However your point misses the fact the EU is changeable (like our own government and it's policies) and within its structure we can. There's a parliamentary process, which our MEPs largely fail to bother with are meant to get involved with. Changes to VAT setting on an EU wide scale was already being looked at prior to the referendum.

It's not a case of the EU just handing out dictats from on high, we have representatives out there we have chosen who are meant to get involved and work on our behalf. That we've largely chosen those who cba with it is an issue of own creation.

Smallfox I assume you failed to read my link up thread on the EU paper published over this. The change to UK rating may have come about alongside a centralised EU VAT system with us having even less control over rates.
If you actually read my posts, this was not a reason, but having very little control over a major area of UK tax and economic policy was one.

Magik many people have said we could reform the EU from the inside. However, in my view, any reforms over the last 30 years have been in the wrong direction.

carol sadly many of the reforms have taken place with barely any UK input because we've sent people in there who aren't interested in working within it. Our MEPs have been majorly at fault for a lot of this. So could we reform it from the inside? Probably not because people still think the EU is a dictatorship and will send UKIP and the likes back over there. But that's not the fault of the EU, again its an issue of our own creation.

Currently we're like the people who have paid to join a club, haven't bothered with any meetings and have decided they don't like the decisions the people who did bother made and are now demanding changes that benefit them solely, without the slightest bit of irony that if we'd taken part in the meetings then some of the changes may have either not happened or at least not had as bigger input on us.

If there was the remotest likelihood that we stopped sending UKIP out there then we'd have a decent shot at reforming it from the inside.

*impact not input

I think FPTP is 100% bad because you just end up with a two- or 3 party system with little or no chance of new political movements emerging = and that means voters feel they are not heard because it's always the same old faces. You could argue that PR means too much political diversity in terms of the far right having representation, but at least they would be out in the open where you can see them. The politics of two or three parties is just destructive, with successive governments undoing the work of the previous government.

Pointy I 100% disagree about FTP and no new political movements emerging. The 2 parties are not fully aligned and are basically coalitions under 1 banner. Both Labour and Conservative move across the political spectrum - compare Tony Blair's Labour to Corbyn's. Under some sort of PR, we would always have a centerist govt, in coalition with left or right, whereas under FTP be can have genuinely right or left leadership. This allows political ideas to be tested in the real world.

Well, it's not exactly getting better with each passing day is it?

Theresa May's expectation that the UK can continue to be involved in decisions within the EU until we leave shows just how delusional this whole thing is.

carol the problem with your argument is that the level of disenchantment with mainstream politics suggests that there is a real need for new political movements to emerge. No matter how much the main three parties swing along the political spectrum, they are still perceived as the same old, same old and turnout in elections appears to reflect that. Yes, we've had Labour swinging from Tory-lite to loony left and we've had the Tories swinging from slightly less nasty to incredibly nasty, but that really isn't meaningful change. Meanwhile the Greens and UKIP aren't getting the representation in Parliament that they would under PR. Not that I'd be thrilled to see UKIP with 80+ seats, but it might at least make the political establishment see that real change is required, not just a bit of cosmetic tinkering.

Bear I was listening to R4 this morning and laughing my head off. I think Theresa May's insistence on having a full say in the runup to leaving is going to really make the EU turn against the UK in terms of the negotiations. The UK has decided to leave, they now need to butt the hell out of any interference in the long terms plans that the EU is making. To do otherwise is just plain rude.

The utterly delusional behaviour of this government is just making me want to tear my hair out.

Well, it's not exactly getting better with each passing day is it?

twitter.com/GreenKeithMEP/status/788743575248990208?s=09

lila I'm clinging on to to hope that the delay in triggering a50 is a deliberate attempt to get people to see how badly they'll be affected by leaving the EU so 'the will of the people' becomes staying not leaving.

If food costs really do go up by 27% it will hit those who can least afford it the hardest and I can't see what they'll be getting in return.

I'm not sure there is any attempt to delay a50. Seems to me Theresa May is using the whole Brexit affair to grab on to power

Have any of you thought of leaving the country yet? I can't imagine living in a country where I hated half the population-
Why not go & live in France?

No, I was against Brexit though; so the softer the better