To do a straw poll on whether you're happy with where Brexit is heading?

[Bearbehind]

This isn't about the whys and wherefores of how we got here but, since no one I speak to IRL is happy with the path Brexit is leading us down and I've just seen a poll in the Metro strongly in favour of abandoning Brexit it got me wondering how wide spread it is.

This isn't supposed to be an argument thread or even how you voted, just Are you happy heading towards a hard Brexit

Yes or No

magik I wound up because so far, I have seen no coherent argument supported by actual data. I know you are on Remain side. But you said there was a thought process behind the Leave voters ' vote and I challenged the definition of it and you haven't replied to that yet. (Pls read the question I asked you in my last post). That's the only point in all your posts here that I picked on because that the only point I disagree with. Otherwise we are on the same page totally.

To brighten the day up a bit though :

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-senior-conservative-mps-seize-on-a-forgotten-government-pledge-to-let-parliament-decide-the-a7366316.html

surfer
They have managed to divide this nation in half and having a laugh at us now. That's what they wanted from the beginning. Call me conspiracy theorist. But I have been posting along these lines from right after Brexit vote. I strongly believe there is a reason they don't want to spend lots of money on social sciences and engineering and on media studies.

You may have been devastated but you wouldn't have been racially abused in the street though, so no you don't understand at all.

And if nothing can be changed, what have you been doing for the last 40 years?

Can't shut the argument you started down with a simple shut up, can't talk people around so now its You don't agree, you clearly need help Nice try on using the classic manipulators line though.

Yes.

Hmm, I'd buy into that Valentine2 if DC had wanted the referendum but he didn't. He only called one to shut Nigel Farage up & because he thought remain would win.

I reckon he never thought he'd call it, because he thought that there would be another coalition and that would be one of the things given up.

valentine Why are you flogging the dead horse with me? I voted to remain. Like bear has said herself I don't think any Remainers would say the EU was perfect. In a decision of benefits vs risks people don't always see benefits where others do, most people have a different weighting system. You need to ask a leaver their thought process. Just because it wasn't your thought process doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because they don't tend to give them when people like you get stompy and decide to attack regardless doesn't mean someone who has taken some time to listen to them can give their reasons.

There are some very erudite leavers on MN, tiggytape comes to mind I think its tiggytape at least, who gave some very good insight into why the leave vote went the way it did and on non immigration reasons, and talk very knowledgeable economic games. Those people put a lot of thought and effort into it, and I understood why they voted how they did. I cannot explain for you why they did it though because understanding is not agreement. Like you can't explain why I voted how I did. And surfer can't explain why all the other 52% did despite the assertions.

Ah, hello tiggy. Are you the droid I was looking for?

Sadly, i really do think a significant majority of the leave vote was about kicking the "elites", along with immigration. At least the elite kickers got their wish.

surfer
He didn't really have to though did he? He could easily have done away with this whole mess by having live debates on EU on major TV channels and let the nation build up its own narrative properly instead of letting the Tory party's hard right manipulate it to their own advantage ? Gove/BloJo etc ? (BloJo is admittedly a ping pong ball practically) I don't think they are this stupid. May is behaving exactly as I thought she would. She was always "you (Tory leaders/Leave voters) messiah it up? Ok go on and have your time. I will pull the plug when I feel like it's gone too far and you have had enough play". I the mean time, they managed to successfully hide away Gerogre Osborne and his failures,got rid of a clown like BloJo (i really hope he goes away), managed to keep people busy in fighting with each other, managed to nearly fatally wounding the meritocracy and the unity of European people and definitely managed to divert all from Labour. That's a great success for a set of elite who are direct descendants of the people who,just some generations ago, were dividing and eating the world to rule it. So tell me now:in the age of information technology, if Tory (read the top some %), manage to achieve this much by simply announcing a referendum and then letting chaos reign (it's their job to stop nation from loosing anything isn't it?) and loads of rats/moles/chancers out there doing the dirty job for them after referendum announcement, won't they count it as one big achievement ? The biggest loss of this Eu referendum is the loss of unity of this nation and that of Europe.
And the fact that their experiment of divide and rule worked as good as always.

Nope

small sadly I agree with that too, which I never fully understood as a majority (though not necessarily the same people) also voted the fricking elite in!

It doesn't matter what reasons I give, or any other leaver for that matter, nothing will change.

surfer on one hand you say I don't listen to your reasons but straight away you follow up with the above cop out.

I've asked you why you think the restrictions we will face on trade are worth it to reduce EU immigration but you never answered. I suspect it's because you can't.

No he didn't have to, but UKIP were piling on the pressure & he was pushed into a corner. He didn't think he'd lose though that's obvious. But if it wasn't him who called the referendum it would have been someone else. UKIP were never going to give up.
Don't forget a core British value is democracy - let the people decide.
And they did.

"UKIP were never going to give up."

So stop telling remainers to shut up.

"Don't forget a core British value is democracy - let the people decide.
And they did."

Parliamentary democracy, not the tyranny of the (slight) majority. Also nearly as many British people decided that they wanted to remain, but no one is listening to those voices now are they? To keep stating the will off the people, as has been repeatedly said, is incorrect and iniquitous.

surfer I am laughing my head off at "core British value". Sorry but when was the last time they really did care about you ? Democratic about the bankers getting away with screwing the whole nation:did they follow the public's will? Democratic about not starting illegal wars hence triggering the refugee crisis (no Muslim country I think had the kind of demonstrations like we had in London against Iraq war): yes they heard the public's will on that too. And of course told you absolutely clearly that the will of the people is in all the austerityeasurss being taken by Osborne and lying in your face,eh? That's a lot of democracy in one country if you ask me. And who paid for this democracy in the end? Who WILL pay for the loss of £ now? You, me and all the leavers/remainers combined. Hey ho to people's will.

It wasn't a slight majority in England & Wales, it was something like 53% leave 46% remain.

Thanks tiggy - it must be your linking and calmness that stuck with me (was posting under a different nn then in case you're wondering who this odd stalking loonie is )

Still not overwhelming is it surfer? Also it wasn't an England and Wales only ref.

Of course no, 48% is already not happy. Now more regretters are not happy either, which means more than half of country is UNHAPPY!!!

surfer please can you answer my question?

Brexiter being slowly vivisected ...

magik
"ou need to ask a leaver their thought process. Just because it wasn't your thought process doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because they don't tend to give them when people like you get stompy and decide to attack regardless doesn't mean someone who has taken some time to listen to them can give their reasons"
Please don't say that. I have been asking very patiently in the beginning. I got stompy when countless other Remainers with really good information managed to rebuke nearly every point (and accepting the downsides of Eu in the process too admitting EU is t perfect ) and then we were told we are abusing/harassing the leavers into silence.
The video posted by lurking is s great example of what I mean by thought process. The caller's arguments were slowly dissected. It happened exactly the same way on here. Do you think the thought process or lack thereof is admirable either way? Or do you consider lack of it is itself a thought process?