Women should be more careful and stay safe

[Lighthouseturquoise]

Aibu to think men should follow this too?

We're always being told we should stay safe. Not get too drunk, not go home with men we don't know, not get into dodgy taxis, not dress provocatively, get to know a man before having sex with him. Or else we are risking being raped.

Surely the same should apply to men so they are not putting themselves into a position where they might be accused of rape.

Shouldn't we be telling men not to shag drunk young women that they've just met?

Why is it acceptable for men to behave like animals but not women?

I'll admit that in my late teens I had a few drunken one night stands, definitely not rape, but then I also got into a couple of tricky situations when drunk with men that I did not want to have sex with but who were frightening and forceful, where I could have easily been raped but luckily for me I managed to get away.

Does that mean that if I had been raped the fact that I'd previously consented while drunk means none of those men were at all culpable?

YANBU I hate the way going out getting drunk and getting laid is presented as the ultimate night out.
I'm male and when I was single I totally gave up 1 night stands if either of us had been drinking.

I find the whole culture of getting so drunk you can't remember very uncomfortable. Don't get me wrong, I had my drunk days as a teenager and may have done silly things but mostly it was verbal diarrhoea and talking to anyone! But, never so much that I didn't have a awareness of what was going on, where I was and how to get home. And that applies to both sexes.

I have talked to my teens about keeping safe when out and specifically if alcohol (or drugs, although I'm not aware that's an issue) is involved. Admittedly, with DS it's been mostly about personal safety and not getting embroiled in fights, alongside the respecting women stance. With DDs it's weighed more heavily on the protecting themselves - not accepting drinks from people you don't know, stay in a group, stay aware, etc.

But to all of them it's been about look out for yourselves and your mates. If in doubt, leave, call me, find someone in charge, etc. It's okay to have a drink but not get smashed out of your head because you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position.

I also dislike the 'blind drunk' culture. However being out-of-it-drunk still does not remove the issue of consent. Regardless of whether someone is incoherent or not, it does not give someone else the right to have sex with them without their consent.

Being blind drunk and vulnerable is silly and inadvisable. Being the person who takes advantage of that vulnerability is predatory and criminal. One doesn't make the other OK.

Even if guilty, the poor rapist suffers more for having been accused of the crime he committed.

Accusing a man of rape should be a crime.

We need more understanding for the victims of this kind of abuse.

Dare I ask what latest crap has prompted this thread? I know it will drive me into frothing apoplexy.

How exactly is a teenage girl supposed to stay safe while walking to school? How exactly are women supposed to stay safe in the middle of a crowd in Cologne? The only possible answer is that we are supposed to stay imprisoned - except that you're not safe there either are you because most of it is from people you know.

Fuck that.

It is not women who cause rape. It is men who cause rape. Lock them up, not us.

Being blind drunk and vulnerable is silly and inadvisable. Being the person who takes advantage of that vulnerability is predatory and criminal. One doesn't make the other OK.

Very well summed up.

imprisoned in 'your own' house that should have been.

It's not even just about being drunk. It's the placing the onus on women to be responsible for their own safety. So if you're on prescription medication that makes you a bit confused? Better stay indoors with a trusted female friend, because if you're out and about and a man attacks you, it will be your own fault because you knew before you left the house that your memory might let you down. Prone to seizures? Better stay indoors with a trusted female friend, because if a man attacks you when you are semi conscious, it will be your own fault because you know your are prone to seizures and one might happen when you are with a man. Etc etc.

The trouble with blaming alcohol is the existence of rape date drugs and the willingness to use them.

I agree with criticism of the UKs alcohol problem, but it is merely a distractor from the main issue.

Yes I would say that if you have had medication that makes you drowsy you need to think about your safety. That includes not driving, not working at height, and even Having another adult with you.

head yes, of course you have to think about your safety, that is common sense. But the point I was making is that if something goes wrong with that, I dislike the implication that you are somehow then fair game for any predator. eg if the person you trust to be your 'trusted help' turns out to not be trustworthy at all...

Whilst this case does look appauling (I'm not aware of the details as I guess most of us are not) I want to point out that most men are not rapists or molesters. The generalised man bashing and hysterics detract from a discussion of our legal and social norms. As for some of the comments above is it a surprise or wrong that some young men want to have sex or so different from some young women? No! Is rape always wrong - Yes always! Please don't just paint all men as perverts and also acknowledge that though it may not have been a factor here false allegations do ruin lives. What's needed is a balanced discussion.

Engineersthumb

I don't care That you are concerned that poor men are not all rapists and molestors. The fact is that i seriously doubt there is a woman (and girls) out there who hasn't had some kind of sexual Harassment or assault - and even quite a few cases when you start thinking back . These often start as children.

So no, i won't think about men's hurt feelings on this when women and girls are having to live with and deal with the reality of abusive males. I'd rather men just dorted out their brhaviour.

Engineer - why do you think most people are not aware of the details of the case? Id say there's a pretty good chance that people HAVE been following the case in question, especially given that it's so high profile.

Who is suggesting that all or most men are rapists? No one on here, as far as I can see, so there is no need to point it out.

I also can't see any hysterics - just intelligent, passionate, eloquent points of view.

It is also no surprise that sex is wanted by both men and women but you do know that wanting sex doesn't mean you want to be raped - don't you?????

Bamba,
That sort of attitude prevents the problem being addressed. If you just have hysterics at men in general this does not help change our social or legal frameworks. How would you feel if I made sexusl generalisations about women?

I'm not under any illusion that it's all men. But it does happen, and we live in such a male dominated society that expectations of women at different to men. The society we live in and messages we receive try to victim blame and make us feel unsafe. I'm not saying every man does it, I'm sure the bloke walking home behind me has no ulterior motive. But women are still afraid, society creates this fear

Oh look, a man is here to help us calm down.

Thing is, engineer, that although most men are not rapists, far too many of them are. A study done at the University of North Dakota found that nearly a third of men surveyed would force a woman into intercourse if they knew they could get away with it. Many of those who agreed seem to have made no link between the question and crime, because when the question was changed to say would they commit rape fewer agreed, down to 13%.

This suggests that men conceptualize things to themselves to minimize their culpability, so a third will "force intercourse" while only half of that group are prepared to "commit rape". From the point of view of their victims, of course, there's no difference at all.

Not all men rape, but it's a male crime. Men commit 90% of violent crime and 98% of sex crime. We are so accustomed to this level of male criminality that we hardly notice it, but we should, because it is only when we recognize the problem of male violence in society that we can tackle it.

It needs dealing with by education, both in schools and through public education. I think it would be valuable for the criminal justice system to examine the issues and its responses to them, as it's clear that a major overhaul is long overdue.

However defensive you are, engineers, sexual offences are committed by men almost exclusively and saying NAMALT doesn't change anything.

engineersthumb

"Bamba,
That sort of attitude prevents the problem being addressed. If you just have hysterics at men in general this does not help change our social or legal frameworks. How would you feel if I made sexusl generalisations about women?"

Oh i'm hysterical, i guess you are the voice of calm and reason then. What stops the problem being addressed is that the full extent of sexual assault and harassment that women and gitls face isn't being acknowledged and recognised or taken seriously. Or maybe all the women who spoke of their experiences on #notokay are just hysterical or lying. It's not women and girls that are the problem here.

When you've been burgled it really doesn't help to be told not everyone is a burglar.

When you've been mugged it doesn't help to be told not everyone is a mugger, indeed that some people have never been mugged.

When discussing rape it is not helpful to be told not all men are rapists.

It's a disgusting smoke screen designed to paint anyone concerned about our current laws around rape as anti-man. Bullshit. Anti-rapist does not equate to anti-man.

Thank goodness Jen 😂😂😂

Better to stay indoors????? A womans own home is the most likely place for an attack!!!

Don't have a one night stand???? A woman is most likely to be attacked by someone she knows and trusts/depends on!!!

Don't get incapacitated???? The women most likely to be attacked are the very young, the very old, and the disabled!!!!

Have we learned nothing?

Although "most men don't rape" the majority of men seem to identify and empathise more with the 'problem' of being accused of rape.

Also, as Jen upthread says, a lot of men who wouldn't dream of actually identifying with rapists feel a lot of sympathy for men who 'wasted' an even on a woman who didn't pay back with sex. Or they feel that men being wrongly accused of rape is a big problem, a more important problem than the huge number of women who endure various degrees of sexual assault.

It is men who must be protected. From accusations, from discomfort, awkwardness, beinng thought of badlly.

I think both men and women need to protect themselves, of course there is no accounting for pigheaded arrogant people who just don't think. However as a general rule of thumb I think we all need to acknowledge that people's perception of us can be very different from who we really are especially when were strangers. Throw in drink, a persons view of nice clothing and being friendly an this being misconstrued as easy, flirty, and up for it. It could so easily go wrong for both parties. It also works with men getting in to fights in bars, one persons genuine people watching and openess can be easily misconstrued as looking for trouble especially where drinks involved and people you don't know well.
I hope I'm getting my point across which is that with so many misunderstandings and misconceptions which can occur when sober as well as with the beer goggles on, we all need to be conscious that we aren't inadvertently giving the wrong impression, it's never done deliberately of course all the more reason to be careful.