To think that Staffies are not "nanny dogs"

[Flowersinyourhair]

Ok. I await the cries of "it's not the dog, it's the owner" and "we had one and it was wonderful" etc etc. However, once again here we are looking at a news story about a dead baby and a seriously injured toddler as a result of a Staffie attack. AIBU or does something drastic need to change regarding perceptions of dogs like this who are apparently fine, until they're not. This dog was, it seems, the dog of a PC. Not a thug or a dog fighting yob. A PC.

I await the barrage of abuse here. I just feel so sad about these poor defenceless little boys who harmed no one and have suffered so tragically.

I will go back to the (genuine)question I asked earlier - why would you have something in the house that is 'triggered' by the noises/movements of a baby to the point it could attack? To me it seems such a massive unnecessary risk. The idea of training a dog to not kill a baby just reinforces my opinion that they are an inherent danger to small children.

Excatly Hubbles

Dogs don't generalise, so each type of person to them isn't automatically a human.

A dog that has never met a baby and has a strong hunting drive may well see it as prey rather than a tiny person.

Usually you'd not be training it to not kill a baby, but you socialise them as puppies to all kinds of people and things, babies, toddlers, people with hats, people with uniforms... They're not born knowing things, so you teach them appropriate behaviour with all those things.

With the vast majority of dogs, they do recognise babies as tiny people, or at least a little animal they'd like to be friendly with.

But sometimes something has gone wrong in the socialisation and it's also a dog that has a strong prey drive that they're likely to act on (some dogs chase but wouldn't kill things like rabbits and cats) and in cases like this it's usually with unfamiliar people and the owner isn't present.

It's a worst case scenario, things that are all fairly unlikely, but, sometimes do all coincide.

We have a dog that's fine with our own cats, and fine with other cats when out and about - but let a foreign cat come into our garden, and all hell breaks loose. So I can see that a combination of territorial dog and unfamiliar child could be tragic.

To answer your question Hubbles - I wouldn't..

I know my dogs, and therefore no child enters my home - they are not socialised with children, I do not have children, therefore I do not take the risk - not because anything in particular worries me about their behaviour, but there are FIVE of them in a small house and they have never experienced children in their home.

But.. im a professional, I know what the risk is far more than most... as impossible as it is to really say what we'd do in someone elses shoes, where I that dogs owner, i would NEVER have invited someone with a small child and a baby to move into my home with the dog.

When I see clients who already have a dog and are planning a family, they already know their dog, I can tell them what to train and address as a priority before a child comes along - they should have sufficient time to address these things OR for it to become apparent that it isn't actually going to be safe to try it.

As Tabulah says, dogs do not generalise well, a dog who has therefore met one baby and been fine is not necessarily going to be fine with all babies - socialisation/habituation is a hugely misunderstood thing with people assuming that just exposing their dog to a couple of babies when the dog is a tiny puppy will do the job.. in fact it takes repeated exposure PAIRED with a high value reinforcement to create a positive association!

Unfortunately a huge number of dog owners just do not understand dog behaviour, as is evidenced by the number of videos on youtube showing people filming and actively encouraging children to do ridiculously dangerous and unkind things to dogs.

People do not realise the effect THEIR behaviour has on dogs either - for example with most dogs if you pick up a random item and move it to the other side of the room, the dog won't care.

Pick up that same item, hold it high up, squeal over it, bounce it around, play 'keep away' with the dog constantly turning away and pushing the dog away and stopping the dog seeing it whilst making silly noises....

You'll have many dogs leaping up and down trying to grab the item.

And this is EXACTLY what many people do with a dog when they are holding a baby, particularly a new baby, particularly a dog they don't know well.

I truly believe that given the stupid things people do with dogs, that people allow children to do to dogs, and the number of dog owners who not only don't understand dog behaviour but have NO interest in LEARNING...

It is testament to the generally tolerant, kind nature of dogs that MORE people are NOT seriously injured or killed by them!

All good points widdlin - what do you do for a living if you don't mind me asking?

I know that I'm not 'dog aware' - I've never owned a dog so I'm very wary around them. Not scared, just wary. Today I took ds for a walk in the buggy and he had a snack clutched in his hand - there were dogs around and I wondered if I should take the snack away? Would a dog be likely to snap at a toddler in a buggy holding a biccy? See I just don't know - you're obviously a pro with a wealth of experience so you're likely to be much safer around dogs than me. I'd do all the common sense stuff (calm, no teasing/no grabbing, backing off if they seem vexed) but I will hold my hands up and say I am not confident that I'd pick up signals.
Hence I am really wary around dogs. All dogs. My only priority is keeping ds safe.

"Would a dog be likely to snap at a toddler in a buggy holding a biccy?"

It's not completely impossible, but not hugely likely in that sort of situation.

Most dogs wouldn't try to take a biscuit from a passing toddler, most of the dogs that would try to, wouldn't snap while doing it, so that doesn't leave a huge amount anyway and then those few who might also have to be loose and close enough to the buggy to attempt it.

Bites around food are more common in the house and usually happen because the dog owner and parent (they could be the same person or not) is allowing behaviour from both the dog and the toddler that's not ok, toddlers hassling dogs while they're eating, dogs sat beside toddlers while the toddler is eating and the toddler is waving food at them - that sort of thing.

Thank you tabula - that puts my mind at rest a bit. He kind of trails his arms outside the pushchair so I worry it'll be seen as a 'hey, look at this delicious snack I'm holding!' Thing..,

Respect to widdlindiddlin. I'm not a dog person and I keep my DCs away from homes with dogs whose owners pamper them and insist they're perfectly safe. Those were good points really well made.

"He kind of trails his arms outside the pushchair so I worry it'll be seen as a 'hey, look at this delicious snack I'm holding!' Thing..,"

Dogs vary about how well behaved they are around food, from won't touch anything without being told through its fair game if it's dropped through to will lick it wherever it is - including in hands, but, snapping as well is extra...if that makes sense? And then you're adding in the actually coming over as well.

I like dogs and I'd be annoyed if a dog in a park was touching my toddler's biscuit, not so much for safety's sake (as in it might cross my mind later) but more just because dogs should be under way better control than that, even if that just means they're on a lead and so can't get that close to biscuits.

I would definitely keep food out of toddlers hands in a park with dogs especially bigger dogs at higher (face) level. Those that have children of their own at home and love to be around them will be more drawn to younger ones.

'I know of no dog breed, or mix of breeds, that don’t give warning signs during times of discomfort, irritation, annoyance, anxiety or fear. Yes, these signs can be very subtle and easily missed - especially by those that don’t understand canine language. But the plain facts are these: bites, severe maulings and fatal attacks do not happen ‘out of the blue.’ They are often the result of a perfect storm of environment, situation, misunderstanding and human failure.' - positively.com/articles/a-fatal-dog-attack-how-missing-key-signs-led-to-tragedy/

Hubble - dog behaviourist (and artist.. and part time bum.. and.. you get the picture, dog behaviour and art are my income earners though, being a bum not so much!

As far as toddlers waving food..

Not likely to cause an attack - however some dogs would take the food and some dogs wouldn't be that gentle about it either so little fingers could easily get nipped.

People should not be letting their dogs approach a child in a pushchair (or indeed any child not supervised AND asking if its ok to say hi to the dog etc) because simply, its rude, but yes putting the food away is a sensible safety precaution (it also means YOU have the food and if theres any doubt or the owner wont remove the dog.. heck, throw the food away so the dog goes after the food and you can leave!).

Food and dogs is a major issue when the dog has food of its own (or views the food as its own, ie, anything in its mouth, touching it or very close to it and not clearly someone elses, belongs to that dog) and someone tries to take it away.

Its a common issue because people (ahem, idiots) attempt to teach the dog that its OK for folk to take stuff off them by... taking stuff off them.

When the dog communicates its displeasure/fear over this, the dog is punished for that (how dare, bloody dog, etc) the dog learns not 'let people take your stuff' but 'don't growl it doesn't work' and you quickly end up with a dog who..

Doesnt like people approaching when they have stuff
Doesnt DARE growl or do anything to the adult owner who has punished it in the past
Is highly likely to bite without warning the next stranger or child who LOOKS as though they intend to take stuff, because people are clearly a threat now and won't listen but the dog doesn't fear the child/strange adult quite as much as they fear their owner.

Another mega risk with little uns and dogs is that kids under around 6 do NOT associate the growl with the horrible snarly toothy face, and they do not naturally associate the growl as being a bad thing at all.

In fact they see the nasty teethy face as a SMILE... and as the growl means nothing will continue to toddle towards the dog, reaching out for its face going 'doggy doggy doggy' to give it a cuddle..

The dogs face is of course then in close proximity to the childs face and you can fill in the rest of what happens without me spelling that out!

The best thing I think any non-dog owning (or actually ANY parent at all) parent can do is teach children some dog rules..

Stand still
Be quiet
Don't stare
Don't grab

To interact, touch the shoulder or chest, not the top of the head/face/back/tail - only when the owner has been asked... if no owner, NO TOUCH (that one trips people up, the child has been taught to ask the owner but in the absence of an owner, many children, particularly the very young won't automatically figure out that they CAN'T ask so mustn't touch!)

Unfortunately some parents teach their children to fear, run around screaming and worrying... and some actually encourage their children to run up to strange dogs, this is particularly common in children who have their own dog or a close relative has a dog they interact with frequently - kids don't understand that someone elses dog is NOT teh same as their own dog!

So the best way forward really is to acknowledge 'there are dogs, thats nice' but reward the child for taking their attention OFF the dog and putting it back on to the parent.

Which is exactly the same thing I teach with dogs (puppies)... there are children over there, have a treat, lets do a nice thing - seeing children = focus on ME good things come from ME...

So you don't end up wtih dogs/kids magnetised towards one another out of excitement/prediction of a reward for approaching/interacting.

Very interesting widdlin - thank you!

See, I think that's the kind of thing that needs to be taught to dog owners. If it was up to me, all dogs would be licensed and all owners would have to take the dog to a certain number of training sessions where all this plus general training would be covered. If a child arrived, another top up session on safety.
I would love a cat but right now I know that with a new baby and how busy our lives are, we wouldn't be able to give it sufficient attention. So I do t get one.

Too many people own dogs in homes where the dog is not walked enough, trained enough or it's pampered and spoilt. The best behaved dogs I know are working dogs who run miles a day - they are treated as valuable working assets and trained accordingly. The worst dogs I know are the ones who live in houses where they're spoiled, and frankly neglected (one has just killed a cat but the owners refuse to put it down. They have a baby. )

I am considering getting a small dog so I look at various possibilities. I wouldn't get one from Gumtree but I take a look anyway.

There are loads and loads of people trying to get rid of dogs, offering stupid excuses such as moving home, just had a baby, allergy blah blah. Now some of these may be genuine or is it that people have got a puppy and its grown into something massive and semi wild.

There are photos of sad, big dogs lying around, never walked. Its awful.

As a staffy owner I get seriously wound up by some of the rubbish spouted on here. My dog is the biggest softy ever and very gentle - for instance my cat will sink his teeth into her when they're playing and she'll just lick him. And on the odd occasion when I've trodden on her paw by accident or caught the tip of her tail in the door she's been effectively apologising to me (which makes me feel doubly-guilty). But I put her on the lead around children in the park because she's too friendly and wants to lick everyone who makes a fuss of her - and not everyone wants that much affection.
Unfortunately a lot of children seemed to have been trained by their parents to either run up to a strange dog and try to hug it or to wave their arms around shrieking as if they're being savaged - neither of which is a good idea if there's even the vague chance that a dog isn't keen on lunatics.
The breed that seems to be a problem round here is boxers - there are a few who are known for being a bit dodgy (including two who attack if they get the chance). And my vet reckons that the breed she's had the most trouble with is chocolate labs....
Still, I guess making wild inaccurate accusations is easier that getting the facts right so no doubt the 'staffies are the devil' headlines will continue until the media finds a different breed to pick on.