To think that Staffies are not "nanny dogs"

[Flowersinyourhair]

Ok. I await the cries of "it's not the dog, it's the owner" and "we had one and it was wonderful" etc etc. However, once again here we are looking at a news story about a dead baby and a seriously injured toddler as a result of a Staffie attack. AIBU or does something drastic need to change regarding perceptions of dogs like this who are apparently fine, until they're not. This dog was, it seems, the dog of a PC. Not a thug or a dog fighting yob. A PC.

I await the barrage of abuse here. I just feel so sad about these poor defenceless little boys who harmed no one and have suffered so tragically.

Just simply no need to buy potentially dangerous dogs - that's all

Princesspink So, that rules out every breed of dog, as is evidenced by statistics and first hand accounts.

You'd think you'd at least read the thread before making a comment that people addressed countless times now.

I don't see the appeal of these dogs. They're not attractive, they have a bad rep (council estate, drug dealer etc etc) people use them for fighting dogs. Admittedly it's not them dog's fault it's ugly and has a bad reputation but it's not really helping itself is it?! No one's ever surprised when these type of dogs attack.

Hellen Keller's guide dog was a pit bull, so are you suggesting she didn't "need" her dog?

Oh come on! Really weak point. Yes, ok, service dogs are needed. But obviously the vast majority of dogs are not service dogs. I also don't think any young children have service dogs - surely they're mostly to allow adults to live independently? Also there's no need for a service dog to be a dangerous breed.

Ok, so pack theory has been debunked. Fire knows what she's talking about when she says what a dog's growl means and what an owner should do. Where is a good online resource to learn dog signals and what to and not to do?

Hellen Keller's guide dog was a pit bull, so are you suggesting she didn't "need" her dog?
Having been to Helen Keller's house several times
its in Westchester County fwiw
link please

she did not have a dog
she did not have a guide dog
pit bulls did not exist then
bull dogs were used for herding bulls, not as pets

Righto, so, again, you're saying she should've kicked the pit bull to the curb in favour of a dog who may well not have worked for her?

There's a girl at my DD's primary school with a service dog.

There's no such thing as a "dangerous breed", just the overbreeding of certain dog breeds, facilitated by breed specific legislation, who then wind up in the homes of PEOPLE who are far more dangerous than the dogs.

Parents kill their own children far more than dogs kill children, and I can vouch for that having dealt with it first hand as a general duties police officer.

"But presumably most/all owners THINK they can read their animal. they're only proved wrong when it goes wrong."

They don't need to read their dog though, dog stress signals are universal. They might do them in a different order or miss out some (because it's not a fixed order type thing) but they don't all have different ones.

Yeah, going to someone's house now means you know all there is to know about them. The information is all online. She owned several dogs, including an Akita and what she referred to as a pit bull (both perceived to be dangerous by the people on this thread).

Of course fucking pit bulls existed. They were used prior to the 1835 ban of blood sports. Theodore Roosevelt also had one, as did Billie Holiday. They were frequently used in the armed forces, and continue to be used by police etc.

I work with animals dealing with 100 dogs a day if not more. I also work in dog behaviour so have quite a bit dog knowledge. I had never had any bad experience of staffs and thought the whole thing rubbish until one day we were called to euthanise one that had 'turned' and it took 4 of us, enough sedation to knock out a horse and a dart gun to get near it to euthanise it. It tore out its own teeth trying to get through the door at us. She had been a lovely family pet for 5 years prior to this and one day just lost it, I'm not sure why. At no point did the dog calm down, it was relentless for over an hour slamming the door trying to get at it's owners.

Following this I have also dealt with a few more key incidents involving them, two that tore each other apart having lived together all their lives and finally another who when in for a routine procedure turned so aggressive even the dog warden and his own owner didn't feel it was safe to handle him. Finally my own dog was mauled by a staff not long ago.

I find almost all of them have some degree of dog aggression or a lack of social skills. I've seen them attend every form of training classes and raised from tiny puppies yet still attack other dogs so it's not for lack of trying.

I suppose this could happen with any breed and I do try and see the good in all types but what sticks in my mind is when it does go wrong with the bull breeds in particular it goes memorably wrong as opposed to say a yorkie taking a snap. I can't remember any other breeds attacking so relentlessly, usually it's a bite and retreat not going back for more.

I would never have one of these in my house or around my animals no matter how nice it may seem. I feel awful saying that but it's the truth sadly. I feel the breed has been ruined and needs to be taken back to square one.

I admit my own breed is not exactly to everyone's taste but sometimes I think people who own a particular breed of dog do get rose tinted to it's flaws which is where a lot of the nanny dog thing comes about.

pluto
Wikipedia is great - she got the Akita in her 50's

Her childhood home was part of my childhood - long story

and Pit Bills / Bull terriers were NEVER allowed in US houses.
Dobermans only came into homes in the 80's

ear cutting and external guard dog use is still legal in the US
as is "de clawing" cutting the toes off cats

You said, "She did not have a dog". That is incorrect.

You were also incorrect in saying that pit bulls did not exist. They did.

You've also chosen to ignore the fact that others, such as Teddy Roosevelt and Billie Holiday, had pit bulls for pets. Not sure what "not being allowed in houses" has to do with the price of Tia Maria, because it's blatantly clear that these people had this breed of dog as a pet.

Decaff I linked upthread to a site, I'll try to find it again. On dog psychology, I find John Bradshaw's work really good but I'm not sure how much of that is online. He wrote "In Defence of Dogs".

For all the people talking about dog licences that are meaningful rather than just administration. Who is going to pay for them and for the enforcement etc - there's not a lot of money sitting around with nothing to do..

Or is it going to be the case that the responsible owners pay a tax which others ignore?

Decaff I think this is a good starting point www.liamjperkfoundation.org/talk.html

"Or is it going to be the case that the responsible owners pay a tax which others ignore?"

Not if it worked like say speeding...no licence meant instant fine.

Decaffcoffee

Here are some resources

drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/free-downloads-posters-handouts-and-more/

www.doggiedrawings.net/freeposters

stopthe77.com/

www.doggonesafe.com/Dog_Safety_for_Kids

There are also a range of seminars, lectures, workshops and talks around the country on large and small scale that are open to dog owners, not just dog professionals.

Things like, on a large scale, the 2 day Dog Bite Prevention Conference held annually (next year Kingston Upon Thames) which has a range of speakers over the two days talking about a variety of dog behaviour and dog + kid related issues..

On a smaller scale there are trainers and behaviourists who run workshops and seminars on responsible dog ownership, how kids can safely interact with dogs etc.. for example Carolyn Menteiths 'Understanding your Dog' talk is fab, half a day and very cheap.

pluto that's really interesting!

waitrose thanks! One of my cats is keeping me on my toes
We've just taken in another guniea pig also, so it's a houseful!

My old dog never once growled or curled a lip at anyone at any time , even when he was in significant pain right at the end of his life .

I don't believe in punishment techniques , my dog was as well trained as the amount of effort I put into doing it , so any failings on his part were mine

Wikipedia? Where the public can come along and change the details at whim?

Excellent source

My secondary school network was banned from uploading onto Wikipedia due to the amount of random shite students had posted for so long. A little off topic nugget for you all

foxy it'd need to be self funding - the price of the licence should cover the admin.

At no point did the dog calm down, it was relentless for over an hour slamming the door trying to get at it's owners

This I think is a critical point for me. I'm not sure I'm expressing it well but it's that psychology of the dog. They are bred to be relentless in attack. The idea of something relentlessly not letting go is to me more frightening than a single bite. Of course I accept that a single bite can kill a child and injure an adult, but there's something about that rentlessness that I find frightening. (I'm the kind of person that has anxiety nightmares about being hunted down by beasts...)

Hands up being honest I find all the staff/bull terrier types unpleasant (I acknowledge that this is based on nothing more than my own prejudice.)

At the end of the day, it's clear that people find owning a dog rewarding and it has benefits for them (which was the point of my question above. TgNk you to those who answered politely.)
The question then becomes how can we put legislation/public information campaigning in place to make sure every dog is in a suitable home?
By suitable I mean in a home where the owners have the capacity, will and time to ensure it's walked, trAined, exercised, socialised etc. And chipped and Licenced. Also what form should that licencing take? Would public education ads be beneficial?

Humanity's relationship with the dog spans millennia - I don't see us giving up dogs en mass. And I say that as a cat person

I said this days ago on this thread and I find it utterly disgusting that people are arguing over the type of killer dog to take a life.

"perfumedlife Fri 14-Oct-16 20:41:57
I agree OP

I can't believe a parent of such young children had that dog as a pet. You surely would never, ever be able to take your eyes off of it? Am not saying they ought to be banned outright but having them with children is a child protection risk in the truest sense.

Three years ago my dog lover friend brought her German Shepherd and her rescue and damaged god's knows what dog to my caravan for a weekend. The rescue dog was clearly not yet socialised and went for everyone and although I felt my friend 'watched out', I was peed on from behind by the dog in all I can describe as an act of violence.

My friend of many decades made weak apologies all the while justifying the dogs background. Frankly fuck off. And this entire thread is full of dog owners just missing the point and obfuscation about calling thier dogs to the loo with them. ITs disgusting. You are endangering children if you have such dogs at home while kids are so young.

"I said this days ago on this thread and I find it utterly disgusting that people are arguing over the type of killer dog to take a life."

Because there's some of us who think it doesn't matter what kind of dog it is, that there are more effective ways to prevent tragedies like this than concentrating on breed and by blaming breed you create false ideas about other dog's risk.

"You are endangering children if you have such dogs at home while kids are so young."

It was me that mentioned taking my dog to the toilet, I don't owns staffy, I've never owned one...the dog I had when the DC were young was a rescue puppy believed to be a collie lab cross. He never gave me a moments worry that he might injure the children from meeting him to when he died 13 years later, but yes I took him to the toilet when the DC were toddlers because it's common sense and pretty basic parenting not to leave a dog and a child that age alone.

I don't actually think it matters what breed of dog you have while your kids are young. Also dont care if they gave you a moments worry. They clearly never gave this family a seconds's worry. Pathetic.