To think that Staffies are not "nanny dogs"

[Flowersinyourhair]

Ok. I await the cries of "it's not the dog, it's the owner" and "we had one and it was wonderful" etc etc. However, once again here we are looking at a news story about a dead baby and a seriously injured toddler as a result of a Staffie attack. AIBU or does something drastic need to change regarding perceptions of dogs like this who are apparently fine, until they're not. This dog was, it seems, the dog of a PC. Not a thug or a dog fighting yob. A PC.

I await the barrage of abuse here. I just feel so sad about these poor defenceless little boys who harmed no one and have suffered so tragically.

I just don't understand why anyone would keep a dog around children that has the potential to do this. The risk is too great. I honestly don't get it.

Link for the locking jaws of staffies, meta? I did ask before but maybe you missed it.

I have googled, but all the sites said the opposite to what you are stating on here. I can list a few sites if you want.

Zuza yes exactly

No dog has a mechanism for locking the jaw.
Pit bull types are hard wired to bite the head and grip, just like a collie is hard wired to nip legs and let go and a spaniel to have a 'soft' grip and a bedlington terrier to pick up and not come back (poachers dogs..)
It's the psychology of the dog, not just the physiology.
They are powerful muscular dogs. Big muscles, strong jaws. They are bred to go for the head and grip. This tenacity is what gives them the 'lockjaw' myth. They will hold on until near death - it's what they are bred to do.

Flowers - they're bred for a strong bite, tenacity and low pain threshold yes...

But they're also bred to be very human friendly and non aggressive, because they need to be handled by their owners while injured and aroused, mid fight with bulls or other dogs.

The traits all go hand in hand with each other.

They're also not the only breed to have character traits or physical traits that are pretty dangerous in the wrong situation, not by a long shot.

That's the point, demonising them encourages the idea that other breeds are safe.

Dogs as a species are more than capable of killing children in the wrong circumstances and to believe it's as simple as to do with breed puts people in danger.

The most common risk factor in deaths or severe attacks is that the dog isn't the family dog, that a child is with a dog without the owner or in a household where it doesn't usually live.

Breed is way way down the list when researchers look at what they have in common.

Indeed Hubbles and that's exactly why you don't want them anywhere near your children

metaphoricus,

"I have a vet in my family, so I obviously take notice of what she says"

"My bil is a vet..."

With all these vets in your family, you would think that you would be better informed really.

Still, will check back in the morning for the evidence of the jaw-locking. Night.

"My bil is a vet, and he thinks staffies and pitbulls are an aggressive and dangerous breed. Just saying"

But he seems to also have told you that they lock their jaws so...

"demonising them encourages the idea that other breeds are safe".

This doesn't mean that not demonising them is the right choice though does it? Call a spade a spade. A dog type that has injured and killed as many as a Staffie is a dangerous dog type by my standards. By all means, acknowledge that other dogs are dangerous as well but don't use that as a means of dismissing the risks that these dogs pose.

It's a fucking physiological fact! A pit bull's jaws are different to most dogs, in that they lock onto their prey! The jaws have a different configuration! And they shake their prey till it's dead! Google it! There are X-rays of pitbull dog breeds that prove that their jaws are designed to lock onto their prey! There have been people who have been bitten, and the dog, even when sedated, just cannot let go

I did google it. And I posted links above. Staffordshire bull terriers, which is what we're discussing, do not have radically different jaw anatomy from other dogs breeds. The shaking, as a PP said, is a terrier trait, not one specific to Staffies.

As for pit bulls, I found this "NO! According to Dr. I. Lehr Brisbin, Ph.D., senior research scientist at the University of Georgia and an expert in training, handling, behavior, and the anatomy of bull dog breeds, “The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles, and teeth of [American Pit Bull Terriers] show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different than that of any [other] breed of dog. There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of ‘locking mechanism’ unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier.”
Source: American Dog Breeders Association"

From this site. Frankly, unless you start linking to some actual evidence, I'm going to assume you're on a wind up.

"Frankly, unless you start linking to some actual evidence, I'm going to assume you're on a wind up".

Given the context of the fact that we're talking about the death of a baby I think it's a little ridiculous to suggest that someone saying this dog breed is dangerous is "on a wind up" don't you?

tabulahrasa, another female vet in meta's family also said the same thing. To misquote Oscar Wilde:

• To have one ill-informed vet in the family may be regarded as a misfortune.

• To have two looks like carelessness.

Pluto There are a hell of a lot more deplorable humans out there than there are "non-human" animals

Couldn't agree more. Look at Donald Trump, for example.
Still. He has the power of human speech. (Almost) and can be held responsible for his actions (I wish) We are animals too. I agree.

But my main enthusiasm for this thread is protecting babies and small children from dog attacks. Because it happens.

"This doesn't mean that not demonising them is the right choice though does it?"

But of course it does.

Every time someone spends time or media coverage demonising a breed of dog they're wasting an opportunity to discuss things that could save lives.

Like the dog body language that's been posted several times in this thread.

Like educating people that children shouldn't be in other people's houses around their dogs and that dogs shouldn't be visiting other people's houses without proper separation - that alone would have prevented nearly every child death by dog bite in the last decade.

Ok Tab- so let's do both. Let's acknowledge the damage that these dogs and their like have done and continue to do AND proffer advice to all about how to protect children from ALL dogs.

Don't have dogs near children. Ffs it is not safe.

Kit Kat said

People are naive and frankly fucking stupid if they think any dog can be left with a child. I don't know why we are expected to pussyfoot around that and make allowances

Quite. If stupid dog owners could take that view we would have fewer children being attacked and mauled by lovely harmless doggies.

Given the context of the fact that we're talking about the death of a baby I think it's a little ridiculous to suggest that someone saying this dog breed is dangerous is "on a wind up" don't you?

Don't be disingenuous. Metaphoricus has said repeatedly, without any evidence, that Pit bulls (possibly and/ or staffies, s/he conflates the two) have a different jaw structure from other dogs that enables them to lock the jaw. Various posters have given links to websites with information demonstrating that this is a myth. Metaphoricus has gone on to repeat the same myth about locking jaws as if it were fact. PP have again presented him/ her with evidence to the contrary which s/he has again ignored. My accusation of possible wind up refers to that and that alone.

Knowing what we know about Staffies from the Press, I think it is madness that anyone would own one with a young child. I have a young baby and a dacshund/chiahuaha cross who is the gentlest of dogs, but still I would not trust her alone with a child, as even though she is tiny, she still has teeth! I feel strongly that Staffies are not nasty dogs in nature, but they are not dogs to be kept as pets by families with young children.

There was nothing disingenuous about my words Gab. I found yours, in the circumstances, offensive.

I don't think it can be blamed on the breed at all, the fact is no dog can be trusted 100% weather it's a staff or a spaniel

The sad thing is the way the dog attacks, staffs etc are strong dogs and if they get hold of a small child chances are they are going to do some serious damage weather the owner/parent is there or not!

No dog should be left alone with a young child or baby - both for the sake of the dog and the child. I love dogs and have a 17 year old westie who I don't think would harm a fly but I don't leave him unsupervised with my baby in reach of him as you just never know, he's still an animal.

I have two gorgeous v friendly spaniels who are fantastic with kids. However, I'd never trust them with kids 100%. All dogs have the capacity to kill.

I'd be quite happy if nobody had a dog

I bet I'd be happier than you.
I've been bitten by an Alsation. I've been bitten by a Jack Russell.
I've even been bitten by a tiny pug dog. None of these bites were my fault. In fact, the Alsation bite was from a police dog that lived next door with his policeman dog handler. It rushed out at me when I came home late one night while his handler was outside having a fag. The Jack Russell jumped over a fence when I was innocently walking by, and the pug dog nipped my toe and drew blood as I walked past its owner who was standing outside John Lewis, having a fag. Maybe cigarettes are the problem?
I don't hate dogs. I just wish their owners would keep enough control over them that random people don't get bitten. I had to have injections for two of the dog bites, but only had to have stitches from the Alsation bite. So yes. It would be a more relaxing world for me, if there were no dogs.

I would love a no dog world.

Staffordshire bull terriers absolutely CAN NOT lock their jaw. They can't. I've sat in on a nercrocpy of a staffy and there's no 'mechanism' in their head to allow them to lock their jaw. My JR/pom cross grabs and shakes toys. That's how terriers kill prey.