To not have moved on from the referendum result?

[Niamer]

Hi. I am a remoaner. I have bored myself with talking about it online and with a couple of likeminded friends.
I was have never been political, was pretty disengaged before the referendum but a 100% gut-feeling kind of a remainer and really expected the vote to go our way.
Felt devastated at the result; I am a believer in working closely with our neighbours, have lived in other Eu countries, have friends here from other EU countries who feel unwelcome etc etc. AND all the attachment to Europe stuff aside, it just seemed a far safer economic option to stay put. Why go for a bumpy ride when you don't even like where you're going? Also felt really cheated when people's reasons for leaving became clear.
I am amazed that some Remainers have just gone quiet and got weary of it all. As far as Leave voters, there has been plenty of "suck it up" comments and total quiet from others. It hasn't been long but time is not healing for me. In fact the Tory conference seemed to take the grimness up a notch. Still so upset and wanting to protest (and have done in every way that I can think of)
I am currently in groups with staunch Remainers like myself, so I know how they are feeling. Outside of that, it isn't an easy topic to discuss. Remainers, Leavers, non-voters, please could you tell me where you're at? TIA

[GreenandWhite]

Whilst British politicians are busy painting Europeans, especially eastern eruopeans as the enemy, in the real world www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37597075 Russia is getting rather worrying. British politicians however aren't talking much about Russia.

"Russia has deployed nuclear-capable Iskander missiles in its western-most region, Kaliningrad, which borders on Nato members Poland and Lithuania."

[GreenandWhite]

This is an interesting article

www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/f0537bc5-43c1-40cc-804d-39df0cff6d75 "The Muslims who voted for Brexit: what do they think now?"

Some British Muslims voted for Brexit and a range of reasons have been mentioned. One topic recurred and that was a discomfort with Eastern European immigrants. I find this really interesting. IS it a catholic v Muslim issue or is it about new migrants arriving and competing with existing migrants for jobs.

also worth a read
blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/racism-migrants-in-the-uk-fox/

[RBeer]

No group is immune from the media. Why else would Sunderland vote to leave.

[prettybird]

That doesn't detract from the fact that Cameron had said he would sign it as it was - without the safeguards for the NHS/public Sector (unlike the other countries which had incorporated safeguards) - some time ago, in contrast to the other European leaders, who have said - in your own words - that we should continue to negotiate.

You do realise that that doesn't mean "sign as is" don't you?

Therefore, I continue to see the Conservatives, who unfortunately I believe will be in for the foreseeable future, are by far the greater risk to the UK signing a TTIP-style trade agreement with all the things that we don't like (I presume that you don't like the potential threat to the NHS and risk of big business suing government's for "damaging" profitable activities ) as they wanted the EU to have signed it already, than if we'd stayed in the EU, alongside other countries who wanted to continue to negotiate to address these issues.

But don't let that get in the way of your pre-conceptions.

I used to have your concerns. I educated myself.

[almondpudding]

PrettyBird, seriously, what are you talking about?

1. TTIP are negotiations. That's how they come about. The EU and U.S. write them together. They create them together. There isn't some pre existing thing which the EU is valiantly defending itself from. TTIP is written by the EU commission.
   
2. I already said I was worried about what trade deal the govt might put in place instead before you even came on this thread.
   
3. I'm not a leave voter, Germany are in favour of TTIP, the EU are in favour of TTIP. You claiming otherwise on all these things is simply factually incorrect.

[almondpudding]

And I didn't even use the word negotiate! I quoted, put it in quotation marks, and said where the quotation came from!

I really don't see how that could have been any clearer.

[WordYaGoBernadette]

YANBU

Working my way through thread so sorry if it's been mentioned but Remainers who want Parliament to vote on whether or not Article 50 should be invoked can contribute to the legal challenge here

crowd funding

[WrongTrouser]

No group is immune from the media. Why else would Sunderland vote to leave.

Perhaps because their experiences over the last decades have been different to yours, perhaps because they have different values. Perhaps because they are in a different stratum of society which has not benefited from being in the EU. Perhaps lots of other reasons which it would be beneficial to explore and understand.

Or perhaps because they believe everything they read in the newspaper.

[Peregrina]

I remember talking to some distant relatives from the North East at a funeral back in 2015, when the Referendum was just a vague idea in the Tory manifesto. There was no mention of the EU whatever; it was all about how neglected they felt by Westminster, and how they wished the Scottish border extended a bit further south, so that they could have a chance at voting for Independence. No mention of Immigration. No mention of this vague concept of Sovereignity, but I suppose that can be bundled with Independence - but sovereign from Westminster, note, not Brussels. Brussels didn't get a mention.

[prettybird]

And I couldn't make it any clearer that those people who fear** the consequences of TTIP are more likely to get it "on steroids" in the UK than within the EU.

Based on what politicians on both sides of the channel (and the Pond) have said.

[engineersthumb]

I can see all that we stand to loose by leaving. But what do we gain? I still can't see one clear advantage to leaving apart from some fat, smug, middle aged Tory being able to puff his chest out whilst planning how to further screw over the average working person.
So now my German wife will be registered by her employers as an alien. Is another employer going to think twice about employing her as she will make their figures look bad? Will there be caps imposed? Of course as a dodgy foreigner she deserves it... her PhD, 12 years of contributions, house ownership and child raising are all blatant abuses of the UK system!

[TheElementsSong]

It's ok engineer - I'm an immigrant too but have been assured most emphatically on another thread that any feelings of being unwelcome are due to largely fictional events driven entirely by scaremongering from Remainers.

[smallfox2002]

The TTIP fears were a load of rubbish anyway, the whole thing about privatising the NHS was already protected in the agreement with the EU.

Its funny that we're going to get many of the things we were threatened about by the leave side anyway, along with most of the things that the so called project fear said.

BTW on the figure that UK homes would be worse off by? The 15% fall in the value of the pound means that we are already £4,050 worse off than we were. Much more accurate than the £350 million figure.

[Bearbehind]

Perhaps lots of other reasons which it would be beneficial to explore and understand.

Exactly wrong but seeing as no one will actually tell us it's a bit difficult.

These threads are filled with Remainers posting about their thoughts/ opinions/ concerns and it makes no sense to me that Leavers don't do similar but with a more positive slant if they're all as delerious as they make out.

[GreenandWhite]

Bear in my experience with Leavers here and in RL, they say yeah sure it will be difficult for a while (economically) but in the long run it's for the better. That's it. Eastern Europeans are frequently mentioned, which makes me think that people are keen on seeing fewer or no Eastern Europeans. i have heard english/british people say this as well as first and second generation immigrants from iraq & Pakistan.

I do wonder why 1st/2nd generation migrants from Asia, many of whom are obviously British, would have negative attitudes toward immigrants from Poland? I have heard some pretty racist stuff being said about Polish people and am unable to relate as I would have thought that people with migration background would be more sympathetic towards other migrants wherever they are from.

[Lorelei76]

Green - giving the view of some (not all) of my rellies, it's because coming from Commonwealth countries, they had to fill a skills shortage or they couldn't come here - so an EU migrant being able to walk in and look for work doesn't seem fair. The points based system is what they are keen on.

they also ask themselves - the first generation ones - what they would think if the same suddenly applied to their country of origin and some of them have said they would be concerned if the competition for jobs suddenly increased because of open political borders.

[almondpudding]

Smallfox, TTIP fears are not just about the NHS.

TTIP (and as Prettybird says, any similar agreement we may now end up with) is a really serious issue threatening European countries.

People are organising against it all across Europe.

Regardless of whether we end up staying or going, it remains a threat that millions of people are fighting against and Many European countries are worried about.

[smallfox2002]

TTIP is likely to be better than any of the free trade deals we are going to sign now.

The concerns raised about TTIP prior to the reerendum were all about the NHS btw, there was scant mention of the fact that other EU members were opposing parts of it.

[GreenandWhite]

Lorelei thank you that's interesting. Do you believe that families who are originally from Commonwealth countries might feel they are more 'British' because of the close history they have shred (close but exploitative of course) and have more of a 'claim' to the UK or being 'british'?

I suppose people with a Commonwealth background might be more interested in closer ties between the UK and Asia as opposed to the UK and Europe, not sure though if this is the case and of course not for everyone. Maybe close relations between the UK and Europe are seen asa threat?

How has everything become so complicated . We all live mixed together in Europe and suddenly it has become so important where your grandparents are from or what religion you belong to. It shouldn't be like this. Wes hold appreciate each other's differences and see them as interesting and find the human connection, not the differences. Is there also an element of envy?

[almondpudding]

No they weren't SmallFox.

TTIP is a massive issue that is being discussed right across the anglosphere.

Most people don't think in some kind of bubble where every issue is only relevant in the run up to the referendum and as it pertains to the referendum.

There are campaigns in the UK about TTIP.

[Lorelei76]

General, re history, not sure really. One thing I can say on behalf of all those relatives is that they think England is absolutely wonderful and they left a lot of problems behind by coming here, esp with regards to how women are viewed. So they have a huge loyalty to England and what happened in the past certainly doesn't get discussed much.

in terms of envy, no, I think it's more that if you were admitted on a practical basis - i.e. to fill a job that couldn't be filled, then it's a genuine puzzlement that the rule doesn't apply to others.

[Lorelei76]

I should add - I don't think closer ties with other countries are what they are looking for either, more just fairness in how people are admitted.

As I say, that bit doesn't apply to all my rellies - some do think you shouldn't be confined to work in one place on account of where you were born.

takes all sorts of views, obvs!

[smallfox2002]

IN the referendum argument TTIP was always brought up in relation to the NHS and the possibility of ISDS issues.

TTIP is a massive issue, but a lot of the fears are to do with ISDS, but its funny that the same clasues are CETA which is lauded by proponents of brexit.


In all TTIP is unlikely to be ratified unless it protects the interests of a large number r stakeholders in the EU, where as what we will end up with here is something far worse.

So in the context of the EU debate it was all about the NHS, outside of it there is opposition to it for a wide variety of reasons and some of those are unfounded ( the GM points for examle) and others are about protecting stakeholder interests which are likely to lead to it not being signed if they arent addressed. In this debate however it was all about the theat of ISDS to the NHS.

[DawnMumsnet]

Morning all,

Guess what? We're going to move this thread back to AIBU now.

Back at the time of the Referendum, when there were hundreds of Brexit threads all over the site, we were pretty scrupulous about moving them all over to the Referendum topic for the sake of everyone who didn't want to be bombarded.

But this is clearly an AIBU thread, it's talking generally about the impact of our leaving the EU, and as such we think it's fine for it to remain in AIBU. If anyone doesn't want to see it, they can hit the Hide Thread button.

[RollerDiscoQueen]

This thread really is doing the hokey cokey!