To think you should be able to network with people of opposite gender...

[RingOfFire79]

...and not have them get all odd/flirty/declare their feelings for you after a bit? What do professional women do to network with men without this happening?

I am a twenty-something, unmarried (but in a long-term relationship) woman in a male-dominated industry where most (and the best) networking takes place in bars/over dinner/at evening receptions. I dress (though I like to think this shouldn't matter) conservatively in blouses, pencil skirts, skirt suits - never any cleavage and never anything above the knee. I usually wear flats because heels are too much like hard work for getting between meetings. I (like to think!) I wear tasteful, discreet make-up.

I am gregarious - I have to be, doing what I do - and equally with men and women. My role is pretty nerdy and socialising is not a major part of my job but networking is useful for any career. Since I have started working, men (often senior men) ask me for networking coffees or drinks or lunch. They usually have a wedding ring or mention their wife and children. I always casually drop the fact that I have a partner into the conversation early on. I don't get drunk, though I will have a glass of wine or two. I have tried networking with the few women but they never seem to want to meet up (my closest friends are female so it's not that I'm not a girls' girl).

Sometimes it looks like someone in the industry might become a friend. Then I will go for dinner with them. Regardless of whether it's dinner or drinks or a coffee, there have been only a few instances of a good professional relationship (i.e. where we've met up for a coffee or a drink more than once over, say, the course of 18 months) where the guy hasn't at some stage made a pass at me or sent me a text saying he wishes we could be more than friends/colleagues or made a lunge at the end of the evening. This is over the course of several years. I am bored of it and don't know how to build a good network without interacting with any men. And all my male colleagues go for networking dinners with people.

I suppose I cannot go for dinner with men in my industry. I also no longer go for more than one round of drinks each with them. But I wonder whether I shouldn't just stop doing alcohol (though this is where all the best networking takes place in my profession) with them at all, and stick to coffees and lunches? Is that what other professional women do? Should I reduce the frequency of a coffee/drink? It doesn't seem to happen to my female friends, I think because they work in different industries or aren't too fussed about networking.

I'm reasonably attractive (this is not false modesty, believe me!) but not hugely so, so that's not it. I don't flirt. What should I be doing to maintain and build my professional networks while avoiding this situation in the future?

All tips much appreciated. I know this seems a little "oooh, poor me" but I'm so frustrated and don't want to insert awkwardness into my professional relationships when I brush off any advances.

Perhaps I am being naïve but all the men I know (my colleagues and boyfriend included) go for 1:1 networking dinners in this industry, it's just what happens. I'm going to have to avoid it but it is irritating.

FleurThomas I use LinkedIn on a daily basis but will admit that it's mostly in a "what people are getting up to" kind of way although I do send messages on it for meet-ups a bit. It's a good point, maybe I need to do it more often.

You're not naive Ring, networking dinners are very common in some fields.

Thanks for posting this.

I recognise your experience, and I believe you that you are not trying to encourage it.

I don't often have this problem myself - I think I have a slightly "back off" attitude - but that probably will be a disadvantage when it comes to needing to be more networky/managery/etc.

So I can't really help but I want to say that I hear you and I believe you.

I do love a glass of wine (or bubbles) at receptions but perhaps I should just avoid it. Such a shame but I guess just having a soft drink really does say "purely professional".

It's frustrating not being able to approach these things in a gender-blind way, which is how I try to operate in the other areas of my life.

Ah, that's reassuring to hear, SparrowHawk - it does seem to be the norm in mine.

Great idea to start a non-gendered networking event

I can see both sides from experience.
As a much younger woman in the arts I got a job that was a real 'break' in a small team collaborating on and appointed by a man who was older and married with a child. I was young and I looked ok, I was painfully shy, I just wanted to do the job. He wasn't remotely attractive to me, never made any kind of advance on me at all. It was an event and everyone had to stay in the same town for a few weeks to do the event. This guy's wife came up for the culmination of this event. I have no idea what the story was, but I never even heard from him again after the event- this in a freelance industry where networks of people work together for decades. Not even a thanks. Total cutoff. I think she didn't like it and pulled the plug.

I've been on the other side of that equation now many times: DP is in a position where he's networking with lots of younger women, and working on jobs away from home. I trust him ( because he's a total blabbermouth and couldn't keep a secret if he tried and I can read him like a book) but the amount of women who have tried it on with him is incredible. We are talking breaking into hotel suites and lying naked In beds, sending rude pictures, and even borderline stalking.

I'm afraid when a female connection asks to 'meet' after about 5.30pm on a Thursday or Friday he says no now because it's never ever a serious meeting or chance of work.

I don't know what the answer is. I think the 'cause' is really pressured industries where women don't get the time or chance to meet men in a non-work environment - and often can't then settle down, - then you have a situation where men are playing the field and women feel the clock ticking and want more ... I dunno

But we shouldn't HAVE to entirely avoid alcohol.

We shouldn't HAVE to not be friendly.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I don't really go for one to one dinners with women either, though, in my field, we either tend to go as a group to make it more of a networking event, even just a three, or if one to one, we do coffee or lunch. Somewhere busy. Also conferences and conference dinners.

I would find it a strain to do dinner with just one person when I didn't want to be friends and we just talked about work all the time. I tend to avoid those things as they are not fun.

It is gendered, though, because I don't avoid dinners with women because I might give out the wrong message, it's because the dinners would be a tad dull. It can be pretty tiring not giving out the wrong message, also it's hard to make male friends, I've found, over a certain age for precisely the reasons mentioned on this thread.

I would drink at work events, but I wouldn't share a bottle of wine over dinner with a married colleague (or indeed any male colleague). The social signals are completely different. I would with a male friend though, as we worked out years ago whether we fancy each other or not and don't need to establish any boundaries!

I'm a lawyer (in house, London) in my 40's and have managed to get to a senior position without having 1 on 1 networking dinners in the evening with members of the opposite sex, or my own for that matter! Sounds very odd to me but perhaps networking works very differently in your field.

This really frustrates me too. In my company a lot of people travel a long way to head office and often stay over in local hotels. Male senior members of my team often have dinner together, either with others staying in hotels or just with colleagues that live locally. They use these dinners as more relaxed meetings. It is relaxed and often quite productive time with senior colleagues that is not open to me because I am a women, as me having dinner and drinks would be seen as suspicious, but is open to my male colleagues. I am in a male dominated department, most promotions seem to be male, may not be a coincidence! There is also a lot of networking on the golf course. I could of course learn golf and try and infiltrate but why should I have to?
No words of wisdom, I've had to accept it, but I sympathise, in some industries we are still somewhat in the dark ages.......

This really frustrates me too. In my company a lot of people travel a long way to head office and often stay over in local hotels. Male senior members of my team often have dinner together, either with others staying in hotels or just with colleagues that live locally. They use these dinners as more relaxed meetings. It is relaxed and often quite productive time with senior colleagues that is not open to me because I am a women, as me having dinner and drinks would be seen as suspicious, but is open to my male colleagues. I am in a male dominated department, most promotions seem to be male, may not be a coincidence! There is also a lot of networking on the golf course. I could of course learn golf and try and infiltrate but why should I have to?
No words of wisdom, I've had to accept it, but I sympathise, in some industries we are still somewhat in the dark ages.......

This really frustrates me too. In my company a lot of people travel a long way to head office and often stay over in local hotels. Male senior members of my team often have dinner together, either with others staying in hotels or just with colleagues that live locally. They use these dinners as more relaxed meetings. It is relaxed and often quite productive time with senior colleagues that is not open to me because I am a women, as me having dinner and drinks would be seen as suspicious, but is open to my male colleagues. I am in a male dominated department, most promotions seem to be male, may not be a coincidence! There is also a lot of networking on the golf course. I could of course learn golf and try and infiltrate but why should I have to?
No words of wisdom, I've had to accept it, but I sympathise, in some industries we are still somewhat in the dark ages.......

Apologies for the triple post

Everyone saying "I didn't need to have one to one dinners" - can you see how you are doing the thing that everyone does to women who speak up about inequality in the workplace?

You are not believing the OP.

At best you are saying that you know more about her workplace and sector than she does.

At worst you are saying that she must have a hidden agenda to want to have individual dinners with these men.

If she says that it is normal to have one to one dinners, and that she will find it harder to get ahead without them, and that her only motivation is wanting to be able to act "as a normal human being" in her industry, then I believe her.

I agree Trills. I find it very odd that people would come on the thread to tell the OP she's wrong about her own life!

I had this a lot when I was working. I'm a lawyer,bro again a heavily male-dominated industry. It's a problem, and very annoying. No 1:1 dinners is definitely good advice, although I've had chancers clumsily try it on over lunch, over the years, so no guarantees of avoiding the problem even then. Only having one drink at evening receptions is probably also very good advice, for various reasons. You would think that you mentioning your partner might be a hint that their advances aren't welcome, FFS! :-/

Bro again? So again!!

Trills the OP asked what other professional women do, not only what do women in her sector do. I've explained what I do in mine (academia).

I don't disbelieve her that men in her sector go out for dinner with each other and when she does the same, she gets made passes at. I don't think anyone has disbelieved her, if anything, we have all described how it has happened to us early on (not only over dinner) and how we have dealt with it, often by not continuing and doing alternate types of networking. It sucks but so does dealing with misunderstandings that then don't lead to good networking either.

There also another gendered reason most women I know don't go out to dinner just for networking, and that's because they have caring responsibilities/are parents and often end up doing the lion's share of care in the evenings. My friend runs breakfast networking sessions for this reason (I am too lazy to attend these).

If you have not posted as if you disbelieve her about her own life then I am not addressing you :)

I think you make a very good point (and make it much better than Corbyn tried to a few weeks ago) about out-of-hours networking favouring those with no caring responsibilities, or those who have a partner who takes on the majority of the burden. And that this group who can opt out of outside responsibilities is almost entirely men.

MatildaOfTuscay I was about to copy-paste the bits of your post that I agreed with but as I read on I realised it all made sense, so am just going to second your comments!

And yours too, Trills. In my company we have a similar situation to the pp upthread who said that colleagues stay over locally and go for dinners that effectively turn out to be important business meetings. Going out for dinner with one person, whether male or female, wouldn't be unusual, either for networking or a specific meeting.

Hi OP
I work in a very male dominated industry. My role includes a lot of business development, so I'm meeting contacts for breakfast / coffee / lunch / drinks at least 2 or 3 times a week, sometime not more.

I never, ever, do a 1:1 dinner with a guy. When meeting up is suggested or I'm offering, I always give date options and say "I can do breakfast on x, lunch on y or coffee on Z".

If you're asked for a dinner and it's solo, say you can't, and/or you have a late meeting with colleagues so you'll all come along. If you're not sure if it's a 1:1, respond with "hmm. I have a placeholder in on that date, who's coming, I'll see if I can move it"..and if the response is "just us", sadly be unable to move it.

As my industry is probably 80% men at senior level, the majority of my meetings are men but I meet women once or twice a week too. I never have a problem with men crossing the line (despite being drop-dead gorgeous!). Most of my meetings are to delve into an opportunity or discuss something that's going on within the industry / their organisation .. they need my insight, so I don't suppose the thought of roses and silk sheets is foremost (despite my allure ;-) )

OP.. i've just thoroughly read the thread.. have to say you've thrown me with your comments about 'whisky and cigars'.

It's been YEARS since you've been able to smoke anywhere indoors in the UK /US etc... your post intimated you were UK based (Toastmasters)...

Bit strange ..

Trouser suits and resting bitch face work great for me
I would stick to lunches/coffee and avoid 1 to 1's

I assumed "whisky and cigars" was more allusive - sort of shorthand for the environment created by a lot of slightly tipsy, entitled, backslapping men networking in a very male-dominated industry. I'm jumping to conclusions, obviously.