To think this takes not vaccinating to a whole new level

[Swanlaked]

DD has a child at school who has cancer. The school sent a letter home asking all parents to please think about giving their child the MMR if they haven't had it and also to inform them immediately if any child was in contact with chicken pox.

One of the mums at the school is still refusing to have her 3DC vaccinated. No health issues it's big pharma/poison/conspiracy theory crap

AIBU at this point to think the school should seek removal of the children and tell the bloody thicko to find another school for them?

Strengthening the immune system in ways we know now are the best defence. Ie organic food, probiotics, midday sunlight with no sunscreen, essential oils and natural medicine.

Yes, if all those people who died before vaccines had only had sunlight and organic food

Oh, wait...

and in the recent measles 'outbreaks' the only people who died had been vaccinated.

How do you not know this?

What exactly is "natural medicine" anyway?

but the trouble there ellsteeth is that not everyone would agree that my reason is 'valid'. i was told many times that what happened to dd1 is unlikely to happen again' when she first reacted, so i took her for the next lot, and that time she almost died. then i was told it 'unlikely' to happen to another child, so ds had his first vaccination and again ended up extremely poorly. this was the point i realised that actually give the fact no one could tell me why they were reacting the way they did, they couldn't assure me it wouldn't happen again to them or dd2 when she was born. My GP is very supportive, but other HCP have been less than willing to listen to discuss with me anything that isn't 'have the vaccine because we say so'. I've had people on here and other forums berate me as all kinds of stupid and evil. and it upsets me, i won't pretend it doesn't, because I am a HCP myself, I care about people, I care about children. I'm not a monster who is either too thick, or too self absorbed to see things from another perspective. It upsets me when people refuse to even consider it from my point of view.

Ells teeth,
Google Dr Robert Gallo, then pick your own... There are 1000s of hits related to this, I don't want to provide one and you then disagree with the source material..

No Great I can totally see why you choose not to vaccinate. In fact you did try to vaccinate. I'm sorry your children had such extreme reactions. Thankfully this is very rare and in general, at a population level, the risks outweigh the benefits. But you know this as you wanted your kids vaccinated in the first place! On an individual level for you the benefits now do not outweigh the risks so you've made the perfectly sensible decision not to continue vaccinating your children. Not many could or should argue with that.

Is that in reply to the "HIV was made by man" question stig?

What about the other questions?

Ells teeth,
No I don't, do you know the colourings in Calpol are not allowed in food... Hmm wonder why?
Fevers are the body's response to healing it's self, and should not be suppressed.
If you are genuinely interest there are lots of sources I can pass on to you.
It's amazing what our bodies can do when given the chance.

BreakWind, they were listed in the 'conflicts of interest' section of the paper so the authors obviously felt the need to disclose them as such. I guess you're free to disagree with them though.

I was using COI in the quotidian way - as you were - that the science was corrupted for gain, so you could dismiss scientific studies off the bat.

So if we're going to be pedantic...

A 'conflict of interest' is actually independent of the occurence of impropriety. By declaring it, the COI is made transparent and scientists can voluntarily defuse the issue before any corruption occurs and / or readers are concerned that there may be an unknown secondary influencing factor.

It's an honest declaration to provide information about interests that could influence how others receive and understand the work - not an admission of corruption.

You can get colour free calpol stig.

You genuinely would let your child suffer a raging fever, which may cause them damage, instead of giving them calpol? Do you let them suffer with infections too rather than giving antibiotics??

Bumbley, I did answer. Sorry it was too complicated for you.

You're scaring me stig... I think you're a wind up. Please tell me you are...

Mumtogremlin do you believe all parents who don't vaccinate are 'so selfish'? Did you read my post about why we don't currently vaccinate? Or other pp's posts about her baby nearly dying at first vaccine so that's why she doesn't now vaccinate? Do you think we are all selfish?

BreakWind, I was using it in the 'this is listed in the 'conflicts of interest' section way. I wasn't accusing them of corruption.

GreatFuckability I'm torn between empathising with your situation (which I do) and bafflement at the way in which you frame your vaccination experience.

Surely having one child with such an exceptional/outlier reaction to an immunisation would put her and all her siblings squarely into the 'medically exempted' category e.g. the people who comprise the 5% unvaccinated population.

It doesn't follow, however, that anyone feeling sceptical can join this group.

If you feel that vaccinating is best for your child, then I wish you well. If you chose not to vaccinate your child, I also wish you well

But you have to take that to its logical conclusion. If we all choose not to vaccinate our children, no amount of well-wishing will prevent disease incidence from rising steeply with resultant long term harm and death for some children.

they've also never given another child any serious illness because they've never had one

greatfuckability, I fully agree that you are within the category of people who are justified in not vaccinating your children. But you can't claim with any certainty that your child has never had an illness that has been passed on to others, simply because you can have some illnesses in such a mild form that no-one realises. I'm ancient enough not to have had a rubella vaccination, so far as I know I've never had German measles, yet when I was tested it turned out I was immune.

Lady, I can't see anything complicated in your posts. No need to apologise.

Ellsteeth, there are alternatives to Calpol if you need paracetamol and, in any case, current NICE guidelines advise not treating fevers unless they're actually causing discomfort. A fever is very unlikely to do any damage, it's part of the body's immune response.

Lovely chart, but it remains a fact that better hygiene and readily available hot water did that... Not the vaccines.

So how come measles incidence went up when vaccinations went down after the MMR scare? Did we all suddenly become unhygienic and lose the ability to heat water over that period?

Google Dr Robert Gallo, then pick your own.

If you are a normal person he's a brilliant scientist who definitely showed that HIV led to AIDS. He went into research science as his sister died of leukemia when he was a child.

If you are a tin-foil hatter he's the man who created AIDS to deliberately depopulate humanity, by sneaking it into VACCINES in Africa and black-populated areas of the US. He's such as bastard he even patented the virus so he gets royalties everytime a person dies of AIDS.

HTH.

museum my reaction is because i can understand why people are concerned. you dont know if your child is that outlier, until they become that outlier. I can understand the stress it causes people who are trying to do the best by their child.
and It certainly wasn't the case that HCP accepted my child/ren shouldn't have vaccines. I had to argue the toss with health visitors and nurses who frankly, most of the time, have very little knowledge on the subject, choosing instead to bully, belittle and harass me until I had to officially complain about one HV's behaviour. It's hard enough being conflicted and worried without that kind of shit. I feel like if HCP's genreally were more able to be open and honest and be prepared to discuss issues with people, this subject might be less fraught.

I wasn't accusing them of corruption.

But you totally discount their scientific research because of it though?

Stig my comment next to that chart was meant to be sarcastic. FWIW I agree with you obviously. All those diseases were already in decline. That's the point I was trying to make ... x

BreakWind, I didn't discount it. I think you may need to re read the posts from last night in the context they were intended.

GF, to be fair HCPs probably see literally a thousand people who claim to have legitimate reasons not to vaccinate for every one person who in fact does have a legitimate reason not to vaccinate.

When it comes to public health, pressing for comprehensive vaccination cover is obviously a top priority. Obviously making room for exceptions should also be a priority, but you can see just here on this thread that this 'exception' pathway is going to be overrun by people like Stig.

ladyconstance fair point about the not knowing if they've ever had rubella mildly enough to never have noticed, but that is true of anyone with rubella. I do know they've never had measles despite having friends who had it. I do know they've never had mumps or whooping cough. i do know that in 13 years i've only ever had to give 1 child antibiotics once as a prophalactic after a trauma (which incidentally probably wouldn't have been necessary if the A&E doctor had admitted her to the ward for the surgery she needed straight away instead of keeping us for HOURS whilst he gave me grief about tetanus infection and then tried to give her vaccine which is utterly useless post injury anyway). I do know that i can count on 2 fingers the number of stomach bugs they've ever had or days of school they've missed for illnesses. so i'm fairly confident.