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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this takes not vaccinating to a whole new level

999 replies

Swanlaked · 26/09/2016 12:31

DD has a child at school who has cancer. The school sent a letter home asking all parents to please think about giving their child the MMR if they haven't had it and also to inform them immediately if any child was in contact with chicken pox.

One of the mums at the school is still refusing to have her 3DC vaccinated. No health issues it's big pharma/poison/conspiracy theory crap

AIBU at this point to think the school should seek removal of the children and tell the bloody thicko to find another school for them?

OP posts:
WinchesterWoman · 27/09/2016 04:38

Goneto: it's only measles I'm afraid. Not chicken pox. This also was a study carried out for the WHO but quite some time ago, more than two decades ago. I didn't read it in a journal but a regular paper, probably the Guardian. It was actually posited as a reason for rising asthma rates in Africa as vaccination became more widespread. Sorry to hear about your little one. Asthma is awful.

WinchesterWoman · 27/09/2016 04:48

Rhoda: you know that encephalitis is also an adverse vaccine event? If I'm only to pay attention to the direct experiences of my own children, does that mean I can discard your own from my decision making process? I'm sorry you are poorly. I'm also sorry that others are poorly who have unacknowledged vAccine injuries.

I actually am sorry for your ill health which sounds very debilitating.

Gileswithachainsaw · 27/09/2016 07:00

I think that it's also a little harsh having a go at people for taking their sick kids out.

I don't class a cold as being ill. Not unless it's particularly bad.

With chicken pox you have already infected half the town before you know what it is.

Granted if people are still taken blatantly poxy kids out then that's wrong and selfish. There was no mistaking with dd1 she was covered.

Dd2 however I honestly nearly missed the whole thing. Easily could have assumed the 4 spots she had were bites and taken her out.

Alot of these things are at the most contagious before its eveb clear it's something more than a cold/routine virus

Gileswithachainsaw · 27/09/2016 07:01

And if you check out aibu there are a million threads telling people not to be so Damn precious keeping kids off with coughs and colds and sore throats

You can't know if it's just a cold or whether it's something more. By the time you do its too late

BishopBrennansArse · 27/09/2016 07:21

No, the difference for us is like saying would you put your child in a car which you know is going to crash and kill them...

If immunocompromised people (like me) have to rely on herd immunity then so should my DD who we know can't be vaxxed safely due to nhs red tape.

If safely possible my kids are vaxxed. I'm not sticking a needle I know could kill my DD into her.

leedy · 27/09/2016 09:23

Winchester, give over with your head-shaking IF ONLY YOU HAD HAD LOVELY BENEFICIAL MEASLES YOU WOULD HAVE ESCAPED THE SAD TRAGEDY OF ASTHMA. I'm asthmatic. I'm not denying it's a bit of a pain but it's very well-controlled because there are very good drugs these days and most of the time I don't notice it. I also had measles, as did my asthmatic sister. We are from a very atopic family (lots of hay fever, etc.) and I suspect measles had fuck all to do with it. From anything I've read, the potential "benefit" of measles in this area is very slight and is completely dwarfed in terms of risk factors by, eg, having asthmatic parents.

This is all straight from this kind of woo woo dangerous "it's so wonderful to get potentially fatal diseases" bollocks, I've also been told by a fellow mother that measles "brings on development wonderfully". Which I'm sure it does if it doesn't give you encephalitis.

www.amazon.com/Melanies-Marvelous-Measles-Stephanie-Messenger/dp/1466938897

leedy · 27/09/2016 09:25

(I don't personally know anyone with a serious measles injury but do know two people who are completely deaf as a result of rubella and one person with no mobility in their hip from polio)

Humidseptember · 27/09/2016 09:30

s a thought experiment wouldn't it be interesting to see what happened if we put all unvaccinated children in a school together. Then when they get sick and ask for doctors help we say "well, we guarantee any drugs are 100% effective so we can't give you any

i agree.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 27/09/2016 09:30

as is illustrated by the very sad case of the little boy with cancer who was removed from hospital against the doctors' advice and was made a ward of court. Parents think they have the right to decide on their child's medical treatment but, ultimately, that is not the case

This didn't happen in the end and only serves to illustrate the truth of what is being said; it's extremely difficult the state to overrule parents in deciding what's right for their child.

Humidseptember · 27/09/2016 09:34

With chicken pox you have already infected half the town before you know what it is.

^^ Yes and no.

I know of people who have understood nothing of the risks of CP and exposed their dc over and over again, then taken those dc to NCT meetings and un wittingly exposed others dc including my own !! There is much ignorance about it out there and a casual attitude to it.

Gileswithachainsaw · 27/09/2016 09:42

But chicken pox is always rife at nurseries and the like.

On that note I'd never have been able to leave the house as she was exposed everyday fir years.

You can't live like that.

All you can do is keep an eye out and act accordingly as soon as you know what it is.

GoblinLittleOwl · 27/09/2016 09:56

For what it is worth I think the mother is a fool, but you can't start excluding children because of their parents' decisions and (possible) health risks. What she is doing is selfish, but not illegal, and no doubt she feels she is protecting her child from possibly fatality.

Doggity · 27/09/2016 10:00

Giles I wasn't talking about a cold. I meant highly infectious illnesses that are dangerous e.g. Norovirus and chicken pox.

I do find the "oh but I was walking around shedding the virus for days anyway" a very pathetic excuse. It's totally fine if you were ill and didn't know. Us immunosuppressed people aren't stupid, you know? A little kindess goes a long way. Knowingly going to soft play when your small child has been vomming and crapping all night is unfair on everyone, not just people with health conditions.

ReallyTired · 27/09/2016 10:32

I think with vacinnes we need to decide what should be utterly complusory and what is simply good to have. I do not want a total dicatorship forcing people to have vaccines they dont their children to have. Education is better than coersion.

There is a strong case for diptheria, whooping cough, mealses, mumps, rubella and polio being complusory. There is less justification for forcing the flu vax and if a child does not have tetenus then its only their child's health at risk. I don't think that the risk of chickenpox justify complusory immunisation.

It would be interesting if some schools forced vaccination and other didn't. That way both immune suppressed families and anti vaxers would have a choice of establishment.

Y0uCann0tBeSer10us · 27/09/2016 10:36

Firstly I am generally a fan of vaccination, although I do use an extended schedule and say no thanks to things like the rotavirus vaccine and flu nasal spray. I said yes to the MMR after much deliberation because I think that Measles is worth vaccinating against.

I understand the arguments about herd immunity and so on, but I am strongly against compulsory vaccination (overt or by indirect means such as withdrawal of education) for reasons that have been articulated previously in this thread. Mainly, I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea that the state can effectively seize ownership of a person's body and force a medical procedure (with risks) onto them for the greater good, not least because if something does go wrong it can be next to impossible for the state to firstly acknowledge the link and secondly give the appropriate level of support. These threads always seem to gloss over the risks of vaccination ("if a few kids get damaged" and so on) or treat vaccine damaged people as almost a myth. Serious adverse effects are usually around the 1:50,000 mark, (and much more common with things like the HPV vaccine), which I think is a lot more common than people realise. I also agree that it usually impossible to know ahead of time which children will react badly because next to no research is done on this. For some reason that I can't understand many seem to argue that, while a child suffering complications from disease is a tragedy that must be avoided at all costs, a child damaged by a vaccine is just one of those things and an acceptable loss. Until vaccine damage is seen as being as unacceptable as disease damage there will never be any significant interest in predicting which children will react badly, and we will all be expected to roll the dice. As it stands, by the time parents realise that their child reacts badly to vaccines, they have already reacted badly, and may already be injured. Even then, as various stories attest, it can be hard to get HCPs to acknowledge the link.

Administering a vaccine generally means giving a medical intervention (with associated risks) to someone who is not sick, may never become sick, or may not suffer complications if they do become sick (even with Measles, which I vaccinated against, the vast majority of people come through unscathed). This alters the risk/benefit considerations (for that individual) massively when compared to other medical interventions when someone is already sick. It also makes the ethics a bit messier - for instance we expect children to have a live nasal flu spray, with the risks associated with that (up to 1:10 chance of fever and muscle aches, up to 1:100 chance of allergic reaction just to name the more common ones) for the benefit (primarily) of elderly people. This is even assuming it is effective, and there are massive question marks over that. Withdrawing education (or a driving licence Hmm ) because a parent said no to that would be outrageous.

It's also worth remembering that up to 5% of people who have the MMR aren't immune because it didn't work (that's about one per class), and that immunity wears off (all immunity, although vaccine-mediated immunity wears off a little faster) so adults, especially older adults, are as much of a carriage risk as unvaccinated children. We don't routinely check that a vaccine 'took' and so, frankly, no-one knows if a vaccinated child is susceptible or not. I do agree though that parents who 'dose and dump' are irresponsible and are a risk to immunocompromised.

LadyConstanceDeCoverlet · 27/09/2016 10:53

it's extremely difficult the state to overrule parents in deciding what's right for their child.

But not in fact that uncommon. (WARNING: these examples concern seriously ill children and may be triggering). Look at the cases of Neon Roberts, this case, this one, this one, and this one.

Headofthehive55 · 27/09/2016 10:54

I agree with you you

Taking something, which is a risk but gives you some benefit is different to asking people to take something which is little benefit to you but almost entirely for others benefit.

Just as an aside, hcp are offered flu vaccine. They are not made to take it, and if they do and take time off because they feel ill afterwards their employer counts this against their sickness record. Lots of people don't like taking it as it makes you feel ill. I think if you made that compulsory, you would need to give appropriate time off afterwards without penalty.

MonkeysMum585 · 27/09/2016 11:09

I have an anti-vax family member who lives in America, her little ones will have to be home schooled as schools where they live will not accept children that don't have all of the recommended vaccinations.
These people risk the lives of others to promote their conspiracy theory/it's all a ploy to get our money agendas and then complain at the consequences. If their child is strong enough to fight off the illness if it comes their way, they should be able to cope with a vaccination.
In the family members case she refuses to get her kids vaccinated as she thinks that a vaccine caused her brother to become autistic - the same vaccines that she and her sister both also had.
I think if you make the choice not to vaccinate, you should accept not mixing your children with those that they can endanger as some people can't be vaccinated, and it's those people that are at risk of deadly illnesses being passed to them by people who "don't believe"

ReallyTired · 27/09/2016 11:22

I think that GPs are making a mistake to complete deny the possiblity of vaccine damage happening. Every decision we make is a balance of risks.

My son had a grommets operation that went wrong. He was extremely unlucky. The trauma of looking in my son's ears has made our local ENT surgeon extremely cautious. As a result he refuses to operate on many children with glue ear. (The joys of watchful waiting!) People with private health care have the option of taking the risk with grommets.

There is no way that I would agree to a child of mine ever having grommets again however bad the glue was. I feel that temporary hearing aids is a safer solution. I am glad that ds had his adenoids removed though. Ds was lucky to have a consultant who was prepared to support my decisions 100%.

When we have state funded medicine or state funded education then we are handing over our parenting decisions.

Headofthehive55 · 27/09/2016 11:31

What about when you vaccinate but it doesn't take? Do you expect re vaccination?

Those people who wish to refuse entry to schools, are you making the criteria being vaccinated, or being immune?

ChuffMuffin · 27/09/2016 11:46

Whenever I see people in support of anti vax, I always think I bet if smallpox (NSFW, because smallpox was HORRIBLE) was still a thing you'd get yourself and your children vaccinated against it no questions asked Hmm. Whatever happened to smallpox anyway? Oh wait, that's right, vaccines eradicated it!

Oh and to the poster who said you can get flu from the flu vaccine.. not true.

NataliaOsipova · 27/09/2016 12:08

Mainly, I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea that the state can effectively seize ownership of a person's body and force a medical procedure (with risks) onto them for the greater good

Don't get me wrong - I would be deeply uncomfortable with that as well. But nobody has suggested that. What has been suggested is a) that if you refuse to have your children vaccinated for non-medical reasons of your own, your child will therefore be excluded from certain public environments (schools) where he/she may pose a risk to others and b) Parents do not have absolute rights over their children; in certain cases, the state may seize control of a child and allow medics to carry out a procedure in that child's own interests against the wishes of the parents.

TheMagicFarawaySleep · 27/09/2016 12:14

Chuff - the nasal spray flu vaccine for kids contains the live virus so can make the, unwell. The adult vaccine doesn't.

However, the flu vaccine can, perversely, make people with compromised immune systems unwell, due to it triggering an immune response (it's more complicated than that by the GP explained it to me).

I have a poor immune system, it triggered an immune response, I was ill for three months and because my immune system was low, I also developed shingles. So even non live vaccines have some health impacts.

TheMagicFarawaySleep · 27/09/2016 12:15

Apologies for the typos.

Gileswithachainsaw · 27/09/2016 12:17

In wasn't talking about colds as in the sense of being colds.

I meant that lot of these illnesses start off with cold symptoms and no one in their right minds puts their life on hold with just a cold.

It can often be days til u realise it's not just a cold and that you have been walking around with something dangerous and infectious