First woman to fight on the frontline

[napmeistergeneral]

Transgender woman becomes "first female" in British army to serve on frontline.
Link is to the guardian but covered by other outlets also.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/17/transgender-soldier-is-first-female-to-serve-on-the-front-line

I don't doubt it's an incredibly hard and scary thing to be a trans woman in the army and for that chloe deserves support and praise. But I'm afraid I still feel unconvinced by the "first woman" claim.

AIBU to feel uncomfortable and unconvinced about firsts for women being claimed by trans women?

Surely Dorothy Lawrence predates Chloe as the first woman to serve on the frontline for the British army?

She was the first woman to serve on the front line in WWI, although technically when she signed up she signed up as a man. Although one could say the same thing about Chloe signing up as a man initially... Dorothy didn't have a penis however.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Lawrence

I believe there were other women in Australia during that time who enlisted as men in order to fight in WWI and also other 'real' women in the American civil war and a woman naval officer/sailor at some point a couple of hundred years ago who also masqueraded as men in order to fight/defend the country and/or beliefs, and that's off the top of my head - I'm sure there were more women in history fighting on the front lines at various points.

"Does this not thereby diminish the (subsequent) achievement of the first cis woman to do whatever that thing is"

No.

HTH

Does this not thereby diminish the (subsequent) achievement of the first cis woman to do whatever that thing is

Actually trojan no, that doesn't help. Could you explain your logic?

Not really nuanced enough to be helpful, Trojan, but thanks anyway.

Crossdresser = woman now. Lovely :S

No great logic required.

Just an ability to see that continuing without changing cap badge is an achievement, so will be joining ab initio.

All the news reports have used the word 'female' to describe Chloe, including the Today programme on Radio 4 this morning. Female has a specific biological meaning so it is incorrect to use it in this instance. The word 'woman' you could argue has a sociological as well as a biological aspect ( though technically it means adult human female) and so you could argue for its use (I wouldn't personally, but you could). The word female has no such wiggle-room, it's non-negotiable, it means biological sex. This person is not female. I think that it's important we acknowledge that fact.

Sorry, Trojan Whore, your point is not clear. Please could you explain what you mean.

I wonder where this person, who now identifies as a woman, is going to sleep when they go away and it's 12 bed rooms? Is she going in with the blokes or will the women have to share? What about bathroom facilities? Have they thought about all this?

For now, I'd imagine it's not an issue, but when more women are in the regiment, what then?

Sorry, still not clear. Perhaps even more unclear.

Fairy, I've had to share tents & accommodation (including bathrooms) with men whilst in the RAF.

Poor you Mango!

I don't see how to make it clearer (as I seem to be on the receiving end of wilful misunderstanding).

Is it perhaps lack of familiarity with the Armed Forces that means perhaps there is a lack of understanding of the concept of cap badge? That simply meant continuing in a particular regiment if the infantry.

The difference between continuing, and joining ab initio is clear, isn't it?

Trojan, sorry, again for the less perceptive of us.

Hang on... I'm a woman. I hate skirts and dresses, I never wear jewellery, rarely makeup, and when I do bother to get my hair cut I get it cut quite short so i don't have to bother again for ages. (Don't I sound irresistible!) I even sometimes use a Lynx shower gel because I like the zesty dragonfruit scent some mornings.

Seriously - at some point in the future am I going to be categorized as male?

Fairly familiar with the army here, having reached a rank only 4% of women joiners reach.

Please continue to tell me why women's achievements aren't diminished by a man claiming them.

If I read one more article that states that Chloe is "female" I think I'm going to have some rage induced haemorrhage.

It's absolutely ridiculous! She is a transwoman with a infantry cap badge, she can still lug about the body armour, clips, Bergen and her mucker because she is physically a male.

This will diminish the achievements of the few biological females that leave catterick in the foreseeable future, having passed the PFA's and military tests required of them to earn that cap badge. it's like they've been robbed of it before they have even begun.

Fairy

Genvonklinkerhoffen:

Fairly familiar with the army here, having reached a rank only 4% of women joiners reach.

Please continue to tell me why women's achievements aren't diminished by a man claiming them

Never been in the army, but I would like to know this as well.

Lt Col, general?

Genvon, I wasn't implying no one thought about it, I was asking how it was dealt with because I don't know. Are questions banned? I've never been in the army, there's a bunch of stuff I just dont know. If I don't ask how will I know? Jeez.

The difference between continuing, and joining ab initio is clear, isn't it?

You would think so, wouldn't you? But the news reports aren't making that distinction. They're quite clear: here is the first female in the infantry. Here is the name and date that makes history. When a female (you know, a female of the sex that bears offspring) does this, what will the headlines say? Will there even be headlines? If there are, people will go 'Hang on a minute, that's been done, I read about that ages ago.'

Repent, do the science museum quiz, there's a good chance you are male, as am I.

Seriously - at some point in the future am I going to be categorized as male?

If you chose to. You can just 'decide' to be a man and thus be...apparently. Considering it myself so that I can get a payrise and such.