to think my DN was cruel and to punish her?

[mendimoo]

I look after my niece and nephew everyday before and after school as their parents work long hours. Today is DNs 9th birthday. DN has just started in Reception and DN is year 4. My nephew has been great with not asking to help open presents (my niece always nags him to let her help him) and really kind in making her a card off his own back, asking to bake her a cake and picking her a gift from his own piggy bank.

My niece had a few gifts at my house this morning (from me and grandparents) that her parents had said it was okay for her to open before school. One of the presents was wrapped in Frozen wrapping paper. My niece detests Frozen and actually sneered when she saw the paper. My nephew LOVES Frozen. He asked if he could please have the wrapping paper so he could use it to make a picture. She snatched it up and screwed it into a ball then dropped it into the dogs water bowl

My nephew sobbed and went into school crying for the first time since starting, saying he doesn't understand why his sister is so mean to him. I spoke to her and told her how unkind she was but she shrugged and was unrepentant. I was going to take her out for cake and bowling after school but I feel like cancelling now. DP thinks it was normal sibling behaviour but I think she was cruel and shouldn't be allowed to continue to be like that (she has form.) Her parents are unreachable unless it's an emergency and I have permission to punish as I see fit. WIBU to cancel tonight?

[hoddtastic]

Define normal, my 9 in a few weeks would pretty much nailed on do something equivalently shitty. She's done stuff like unplugged her bath so he can't sit in her bath bomb water (go figure) hidden her magazines so he can't bend them/leave them on the floor or RUIN THEM WITH HIS EYES BY READING THEM. It's pretty standard- when she's behaved horribly we will talk to her once the spiral of rage/petty has subsided, and she sees the error of her ways (until next time of course) it's pretty normal amongst siblings IME.

[PaulAnkaTheDog]

I never said the daughter was going to turn into a terrible person. I said that I don't believe that behaviour is normal for a child of that age, based on my own experiences.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

"I don't think that the "spend some time with dc1 so they don't feel pushed out by dc2" advice is meant to carry on for 5 years, Nataleejah! It certainly doesn't mean that the second child must always be treated worse than the first child."

"What if only the older child is old enough for a certain thing? Or the younger one would enjoy something that would mortify the older as 'too babyish'?"

Of course it is OK for only one child to have a treat in these circumstances - what matters is that the other child gets some sort of treat too - at some point. I thought that was pretty clear from what I said about treating children equally.

Equally doesn't have to mean identically - it just means there is a need for balance - if one child gets all the treats, and the other doesn't (because the first child will kick off and the parents don't have the balls to stand up to them) - then that is bad parenting, and bad for both children.

If one child is too young or too old for a particular treat, then you redress the balance later on - the younger child gets taken to see Finding Dory, and at a later date, the older one goes to see a film they like. Or one child gets to go go-karting for their birthday, and the one who is too young gets taken to do something age-appropriate and is told they can choose go-karting for their birthday when they are old enough.

What you don't do is take one child away, without their sibling, and then decide NOT to take the younger one away without their older sibling! for fear of upsetting the older one. Does that make it clear enough?

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

Hoddtastic - I do see what you are saying about normal inter-sibling behaviour, and I think you are right - but what matters is how the parents react. In your case, you talk to your dad and help her to see how her behaviour hurt her brother. You don't condone her behaviour or encourage it by not giving her brother treats, so she doesn't kick up a fuss.

[Barksdale]

As another thought, OP, it seems highly unlikely that one child is "always sweet and kind" and the other is "spiteful".

They must fight, fall out and so on as part of normal sibling behaviour. The fact that you see the younger one as essentially perfect and the older one as "having form for being spiteful" and so on might indicate why the older one is nasty to the young one.

It is often the case where one child is labelled as the difficult one and the other is all sweetness and light.

Not all kids are easy and it doesn't speak of an inherent goodness or badness in them, they just need different parenting.

The fact that the older one would hate the younger one going away without her maybe indicates that she feels abandoned by her parents, who seem to rarely see her. This would affect an older child much more than a younger one. Older children always show behavioural problems first. They are also not as cute/tiny and are punished more severely in general.

I think you should be careful how you deal with this situation or this girl will have real behavioural problems when she moves into puberty. For a start, stop seeing little/easy one as kind and lovely, and seeing her as being somehow innately spiteful (rather than seeing that her actions may be caused by internal pain, as she's in an unusual situation in terms of her family).

[jacks11]

Her behaviour certainly wasn't nice and needed to be dealt with but frankly punishments should be handed out at the time. Dragging out the whole things all day is also not a terribly nice (or effective) way to deal with the problem IMHO.

Does she know you are pondering exactly how to punish her and have left her to stew on this all day or are you planning to surprise her with this delayed punishment on her arrival at yours?

You have already made it clear you didn't think her behaviour was acceptable and why. You should have decided on the additional punishment of removing her treat at that time or not at all. As you didn't, I don't think it would be fair to dole out this punishment now. I wonder if this is more about you wishing to take her down a peg or two more generally, rather than as a punishment for this particular incident? You seem to dislike her a bit (or at least that is how it comes across) and have issues way you feel her parents treat the siblings differently and feel sorry for your nephew.

I think it may be worth remembering the fact her parents treat the siblings differently isn't actually her fault (even if it is because DN kicks off)- it's up to her parents to do what they think is fair and right, and deal with her tantrums appropriately. No point in resenting your niece for her parents lack of discipline.

[jacks11]

Also agree with Barksdale regarding the unbalanced view of the siblings (one mostly spiteful and unkind, the other mostly angelic). It can happen, but is pretty rare I should think. It can be hard not to let that show and I wonder if they pick up on it?

Also agree that it may be worthwhile reflecting on why she behaves this way- simple stroppy behaviour due to lack of boundaries at home and sibling rivalry or something more profound?

[Cubtrouble]

Buy your nephew a whopping great big frozen present wrapped in paper and nothing for little miss spiteful.

You can't cancel birthday but I would have been clear her behaviour was disgusting towards her poor brother

[Goingtobeawesome]

Cancelling the party is way over the top.

[pieceofpurplesky]

Where are her parents? Maybe she just wants them to be there on her birthday.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

I think yes it was unkind behaviour but it was a pretty spontaneous quickly done thing, perhaps amidst the excitement of present opening on her birthday when she may not realise she still needs to think of others feelings?

I feel what is more concerning here is the adults in these children's lives not always treating the two children fairly and in a calm, balanced way - and that goes for all of them I think.

[summercoldssuck]

Op I don't think you are being in any way unreasonable!

Dss was a spiteful little sod last year around his birthday. He was exceptionally rude to me on mine, made several very hurtful comments, refused to apologise, treated me like scum. I told dp I was not prepared to supervise his birthday treat of a sleepover with friends (dp was refusesd leave at work) so he either made alternative arrangements or it was cancelled. Dp cancelled as he felt Dss would not learn otherwise. He has not treated me like it again.

I would make an extra fuss of your nephew this weekend, he is getting shafted big time by his parents and their fear of upsetting your niece.

[blankpieceofpaper]

I have a big parcel here wrapped in some Frozen paper. I would happily post it to your DS afterwards! (the paper!)

[angelikacpickles]

I wouldn't have cancelled the treat. How would you have punished/disciplined her if it hadn't been her birthday? Do that and let her have her treat.

[mendimoo]

Their parents are doctors, for those wondering.

For those saying my nephew overreacted: he cried immediately because of the shock at her nastiness, then after I'd reprimanded her she kept giving him evils which made him sob again. School is only a five minute walk away and on the way there was some rubbish blowing in the wind and my niece sneered something to her brother about how he shouldn't get excited because it isn't more stupid Frozen paper and that set him off again.

I honestly do love her very much. She is fantastic with my DC and her friends and we are great friends; it is just with her brother that she behaves so appallingly and doesn't seem to care when he's hurt. However, she'd been so proud of him starting school this week and can be lovely to him 70% of the time which is why my nephew gets confused and upset when she is mean.

Her parents are taking her to Alton Towers and the Snowdome for the weekend so they are activities that could've included my nephew.

She came out of school still in a mood that she'd been told off and glaring at her brother. He cowered away from her I told her that she had behaved appallingly this morning and that her behaviour was not to continue. I said she should go and think about what she'd done and was continuing to prolong when we got home. She came in being nice as pie to her brother five mins later but didn't apologise. When her brother was out of earshot I asked why she did it and she shrugged and said because it's her birthday so she can do what she wants with her stuff. I asked how she would feel if I did the same to her just because I could and she looked a bit guilty. I took them for the birthday treat on the condition that she rethink her approach to her brother and with a warning that even a nasty look would result in us leaving immediately. She was great with him all evening and they parted with a hug. He's gone to bed a very happy boy I know it's probably not a long term fix, but hopefully it made her think a bit.

[mendimoo]

Oh and it was her grandma that bought the bloody Frozen paper because she thought it was popular so DN might like it. I can't believe people think the behaviour is acceptable for a 9 year old based on not liking the wrapping paper. I would be ashamed if my DC were so ungrateful as to complain about wrapping paper after the age of about 3.

[emilywemily]

Obviously in some people's minds observing a spiteful child's behaviour means you hate them
I'd be horrified if my DD behaved like this but then again she wouldn't because I haven't brought her up to be an entitled little madam and mistreat her siblings/cousins/any child. Your poor nephew that's bloody awful. Her parents need a good talking to about how hellish her behaviour will be in a few years if this carries on. I know because I've seen it with my DSC luckily my DH managed to nip it in the bud quickly enough

[Nataleejah]

What you don't do is take one child away, without their sibling, and then decide NOT to take the younger one away without their older sibling! for fear of upsetting the older one. Does that make it clear enough?
It is not clear enough. Where are they going? What are they doing?
Maybe somewhere where a particular 4yo would be too much hassle? E.g. too whiny/fussy/misbehaving to enjoy something particular. I don't know, just guessing.

As for wrapping paper, it maybe just a paper, but behaviour is plain and simple bullying, and that is not acceptable, even though its 'normal' for children to fight over nonsense.

[pieceofpurplesky]

Even as doctors could one not have taken half a day to see her on her birthday? I know lots of kids that would be in a mood if parents were not there for their birthday ...

[TallulahTheTiger]

It all sounds rather histrionic to me, but then I've still just got a baby so all this to look forward to, both reactions seem extreme, whether the screwing up of the wrapping paper to the tears continuing all the way to school if I've read right, all because of wrapping paper that would have ended up in recycling anyway??

[Audreyhelp]

Well that's interesting I nanny for two doctors.
One of them works it so they can get home or take a half day fir first day at school birthdays etc. They actually get more annual leave the most people.
Glad she had a nice birthday.

[dailygrowl]

Mendimoo- I think you handled it just right . I do agree it was spiteful behaviour (and very wasteful) - not because there's anything important about wrapping paper but because she didn't have to soil it and it cost her nothing to make her brother happy. It's about learning to be thoughtful and considerate. Well done!

[Haffdonga]

I agree. You handled it brilliantly. [smiles] all round.

[Lweji]

I had missed the update.
Nicely done. :)

[treggle]

Histrionic is exactly the right word. It all sounds far too dramatic. Hopefully she will mellow and he will toughen up a bit.