To be just a tiny bit bothered by what I saw at my son's nursery this morning?

[KingofnightvisionKingofinsight]

My 3-year-old DS just started at a new nursery. The teachers are lovely and kind and DS seems happy, and obviously that's most important. But anyway...

This morning at dropoff DS wanted me to stay for a few minutes so I did. I watched him sit down at a craft table set with lovely materials including glue, glitter, scraps of fabric and cotton wool, and small yellow paper circles. My DS spent several minutes carefully applying dumping half a bottle of glue to a good portion of his paper, and then he asked the teacher to pass him some glitter. She very sweetly encouraged him to put more glue on other parts of the paper first, which he did, and then she gave him the glitter. A minute later she gave him a yellow circle. He started to glue it at the bottom of the paper, but she gently corrected him, saying that the sun belongs at the top. She then pointed to a sample project that had been made. It was a picture of the beach, with an ocean of blue fabric scraps and glitter, cotton clouds, and in the top right corner a yellow paper sun. My DS dutifully copied the sample picture and proudly showed me his beach.

AIBU to be a little sad that the nursery is giving the kids the idea of what to make and even showing them something to copy? Why can't they just put out the materials and let them create? I'm wondering if this is always the nursery's approach to art or if it's just this particular teacher. She is otherwise lovely so it's not like I would dislike her for this, but if this always how art and creativity are managed at the school it does give me a bit of pause. If it is I would still be happy with the school but I think I would like to engage them a bit (in a friendly, non-demanding way) about their reasons and figure out how it impacts other areas of the curriculum.

AIBU?

I used to work at a nursery class in a primary school.There was a combination of free creative work which was child-led and more prescribed activities on a theme which would invariably be displayed.

I do remember one member of staff who could never get her head around the children doing anything unstructured though. She would have been pushing kids to put the sun in the right place, but it was considered bad practise in that context.

It's made me think of a children's poem I read once where the child is told off at school for painting a picture of her parents with something like purple arms and blue heads, but then goes home and proudly presents her painting to her blue headed, purple armed parents!

YABU -if he gets time to do more free stuff as well -it should be a mix. Also if you get him to copy something like that he he is practising different skills.
I had a long chat once with someone who had been working in preschool for 20+yrs (and a primary teacher before that).
They basically said you have to do these thing to tick the box in an inspection that is following the current trend...
So once they got criticised for having artwork on display that was too adult led (preschool and you could tell what it was ) - they had things like leaf prints in autumnal colours for autumn.
So they just gave the children materials and let them get on with it. They got criticised a few years later for the walls being too busy and colourful with no real theme or meaning to the headings. (So eg random squiggles in autumnal colours under autumn -with lots of that nasty dirty greeny black colour you get from random mixing of autumnal colours..)
Same with colouring in - at one point it was thought to encourage hand to eye coordination and pencil control - I don't know what the current thoughts are but it was' banned' for years.
Choosing things to do - give them free play/free choice but at the same time they have set things they are supposed to learn. And also you need to encourage them to try different things - they may be too nervous/uncertain to eg go on the climbing frame and need encouragement to try it and if they do they might enjoy it - if they don't ok but they have tried it. Again not sure on current thoughts but 'directing play' was frowned on.

I think it is a bit like food - everything in moderation...

I tried to make it clear in my post that I know this is a minor concern and that I really am happy with the school. I accept that IWBU to consider discussing it with the nursery and I won't do that. But I'm surprised to hear so many people actually think copying is actually better for a 3-year-old to do in this context. I guess it's just a change for me. The art activities at my older DC's nursery (not in the UK) focused on exploration and creativity and the teachers made a big deal about emphasizing process over product. Honestly I was amazed at what the kids there produced.

Sofabitch I'm surprised to hear the comparison between art and letter formation/language learning. To me they are not analagous at all. For many reasons, conformity and consistency are important for writing. But to me art should be exactly the opposite -- imaginative and unique. Are you saying there's no place for originality in nursery?

EveOnline , funny you should ask that. I was a primary teacher for years before switching to a boring office job. I've never taught in the UK, though, and I can tell from both of my DCs' experiences that it is very different here. But regardless, I think any parent is entitled to be informed about the educational philosophy behind the way his/her child is being taught.

I think it depends whether this is representative of the only creative opportunities or whether they also do some free drawing etc.

Many moons ago I did work experience at a private nursery with lots of elaborate art displays. I saw new parents being shown round cooing over these projects. A week in the nursery and it swiftly became clear that this was mostly adult work with the children being either heavily directed or adults actually taking over. It was rather sad that the children never got a chance to do their own thing.

Then just ask the teacher "I saw yesterday you were getting them to copy a beach picture, do they do that sort of thing often?"

Can I just add that nobody told the kids it was supposed to be a picture of the seaside? My DS was already well into it before the teacher even showed him the sample picture. There was no lesson attached to the activity and no discernible theme. It just one of several activities that the kids could choose upon arrival at school. Others were play dough, Duplo Legos, and bead stringing.

emphasising process over product

that's it exactly, and how it should be.

an example: my kids always had loads of paint at home. They spent hours mixing colours. They used loads of jam jar lids to create many millions of shades of brown splodge. They never actually used any of these in any paintings, it was the mixing that fascinated them. On the way they learnt lots of things that I didn't realise at the time.

So, fast forward to year 4. Parents invited to share an art activity with kids. I was at a table with my ds and some others, they had to do something where they had to mix colours to match something. The other 4 children round the table actually didn't know how to. Ds immediately said things like 'well, it is a pale green we need so lets start with white and add a bit of green, and ..... ' and they made an amazing job of mixing the colours.

That is why messing around with creative stuff matters.

Actually I'm with you a tiny bit op. If it had been part of a structured session then fair enough but I was talking to an art teacher who runs junk modelling creative sessions for nursery staff and teachers said they really struggle now. When she gives the children's sessions bottles and material and says create a creature they don't know where to start as their art in many schools is completely guided.

My dc have never done art like we used to do at school, junk modelling, free painting and crafts etc. Everything they have done they have been told what they have to do and how to do it. What happened to the glittery, glue , paint mess I used to make as a child and then letting them be creative? It is a bug bear of mine.

I'm with you on this. Some things have to be prescriptive - my DS is currently in a battle as to why the letter 'a' cannot be written backwards - he thinks it should be his choice but it is not up for negotiation. Art is.

i cant believe the people actuallly saying YABU, She is removing his creativness witch is SO important for Children, I am a teacher and we learn to do everything we can to help kids use there minds to get creative as it helps in alot of ways.

i dont think she ment it or realised what she was doing but she should. He is just a child and since when in school to you get told to just copy ... pretty sure thats messing his mind up about cheating/copying other work.

I would tell someone, not in a mean way just explain that it bothered you as you want him to be able to be creative and make whatever he wants to make.

I'm glad to see at least some people get where I'm coming from, and actually a lot of you have described what I am thinking better than I could. It's fascinating to hear everyone's perspectives, even the people who don't agree. The insulting/condescending posts don't bother me. I've got a thick skin. But it is interesting how many people made big assumptions: that I am a first-time parent, that I don't know much about teaching, and that the picture was part of a lesson or thematic unit about the seaside.

I do also agree that the whole "first world problem" insult is silly and meaningless at this point. At the very least anyone who says it must not spend much time on mumsnet!

But she is bu because she only saw a tiny snapshot of his day and has passed judgement based on that. Maybe she should ask the teacher in a non-accusatory way what the day consists of so she can get s bigger picture of what they do there.

I'd actually be a bit annoyed about this, but can't see it as something to make a fuss about. Kids should be allowed freedom and creativity imo :) It certainly is a first world problem though!

Haha only just read your last post! First world problem is applicable to many things on Mumsnet xD

OK I was the one who said #firstworldproblem - and I actually spend Far too much time on MN than is healthy!!!!

Having read through the thread, I actually do agree with you to an extent OP. It isnt good for creativity to be stifled. However, aside from that, I made the comment because it sounds like your son is in a very caring environment and I guess although I would perhaps feel the same as you in terms of what happened with the nursery teacher being so prescriptive, I wouldnt start a thread about it. Like others have said, I'm not sure what good mentioning it would do? But that is just my opinion - even if the prescriptiveness narked me a bit, I'd just get on with my day, happy that DC was doing a nice activity at nursery.

Anyway, I didnt mean to offend you!

You are absolutely right op. Process over product every time from a child development point of view! However as this thread demonstrates, not many parents know/understand/approve of that. I think schools then feel obliged to do the odd discernible picture for them to take home. That's what I do as a childminder.

This used to annoy me. We have always encouraged creativity at home so I knew that they were able to express themselves through art but felt sad that the teachers never saw this and that other parents refused art materials at home (one refused glitter, glue, chalk because it was 'messy').

Forgot to add... maybe worth asking if all art sessions are planned or if they have any sessions which are 'free'.

Art students don't have to justify their ideas so why should pre-schoolers? They begin their blurb about their work with 'I'm interested in' or 'I like'.

'I'm interested in' or 'I enjoy' oils/glitter/splodging/mixing/lobsters/dabbing/scribbling is great. Part of what should be encouraged is the enjoyment and appreciation of the arts. Art is not an end in itself. It's a means of expression and exploration. Much healthier than copying just so that tidy-minded adults who have no time to listen to the creator of the piece can have something neat/symmetrical/identifiable on the wall.

DS had a primary teacher who was furious with him for making a Cyclops santa with the pre-cut foam and google eyes.! Excuse me Mrs Bossy Boots, where is the educational value or enjoyment in looking at 30 identical foam Santa Clauses?

First world problem is just a bit of banter

fucking hell I have one kid and never been this invested, I'm mind-boggled.

Peak. Mumsnet.

OP I get it. If you'd started a thread just idly wondering "is it better for 3 year olds to copy pictures or to have free rein" there would have been a better discussion with no little snide remarks.

This is the sort of "art" that I hate. It should be about the process not the product. So YANBU but you won't be able to overturn the mindset I'm afraid -- which many other posters here seem to share.

Art students don't have to justify their ideas so why should pre-schoolers?

Yes they do, they have to provide reams of evidence on why they did X and what they hoped to achieve, who they were planning to effect.

Also pre-schoolers and art students are hardly the same so what a stupid comparason