Large Families

[Czerny88]

I'm trying to understand the psychology behind people having large families (by which I mean anything over three children, I guess). NB I'm thinking about people in the 21st century, in the West, with access to contraception and low infant mortality, who don't belong to a culture where it is particularly encouraged to have a large number of children, such as Judaism. And obviously there are circumstances such as multiple births which don't apply.

My visceral feeling is that it is often wrong on many levels. In attempting to enunciate why, I would say people should not have more children than they can afford, than they have time to care for, than can fit comfortably in their living accommodation.

And even in the case where the parents are very wealthy, have a huge house and extra support such as a nanny, there is still the hugely important issue of over-population. It feels like we are at capacity already, without room to increase the population by the amount would result by every couple having even three children.

I'm trying not to be too goady or right-wing, and I have personal reasons for the way I feel (I am involuntarily childless) so please don't be too harsh, but it's something I struggle with ideologically as well as emotionally.

So... AIBU to think that people should be more responsible about how many children they produce and not act solely on their own desires regardless of the potential effects on others? Or is that an unrealistic, draconian expectation?

I completely agree with you op. I truly am the leftiest most liberal laissez-faire type person and I do everything I can not to judge, but I can't help but wish people wouldn't have large families in this horrendously over-populated over-stretched world.

And of course that goes for the Jools & Jamies and Davids & Victorias and all the people who can support their children for their entire lives without claiming a penny from the state.

In my own circle, I have loads of friends and relatives with three or four children who moan about lack of school places etc.

"Take a look at the usernames, for a start. Most posters swear heavily..."

So what? There's no need to swear in response to a perfectly valid question!
I didn't say people shouldn't ever swear, I said there was no need to in this situation. I found it very aggressive towards the OP who has started a very interesting discussion.

I agree with you OP. I don't think we should be adding to the overpopulation problem and my personal feeling is that two children per couple is enough (who will replace us both when we die, without further straining the planet's resources).

happyandsingle cats aren't that daft

midcentury Yes, I have grasped the concept of people wanting things. But, having passed the toddler stage, I have also grasped the concept of not always being able to have everything you want, especially if it has an adverse effect on others.

Minisoks I specifically mentioned multiple births in the first paragraph of my OP.

yeOlde Not "just", but of course it's inextricably linked from my perspective.

I had a large family because I wanted one, I love it despite it being hard work on occasions, but the love and joy we share outweigh the negative.

I actually agree with the op.

I know a fair few larger families. Most of them can afford them, have the space and time for them and cope very well.

However, one family where there are five children simply do not. The house is appalling dirty and the kids wear dirty clothes, have dirty hair and smell. They practically live on takeaway food as mum claims that she can't cook and look after the children at the same time - dad works nights to support them. Quite honestly, it's a shock that social services haven't intervened at all. Mum used to be a friend of mine and I supported her as much as I could, helped clean up when I was over, looked after 2 or more of her children, had them stay over at mine to give her a break but she never actually did anything to help herself or the kids. Dad was fighting a losing battle trying to keep on top of the chaos when he came in from nightshift before taking the kids to school. I know for a fact (because Dad told me) that they had in excess of £700 a week income through his wages and benefits but she claimed she couldn't afford activities for the kids or new clothes. The mantra was 'I've got five kids! It's alright for you, you've only got two'. No-one forced her to have five.

So yes, I agree that some people have too many kids. Because they cannot cope, they can't provide the attention each child needs, they can't give them the time or energy and it's the kids who are left floudering in the middle of disfunctional families like this that end up leaving school with no prospects so they start a family young, carry on having kids themselves and so the cycle continues. Very sad.

jennifer86

I'm less concerned about over population than the way we destroy the earth for our lifestyles (all of us).

Let people have all the babies we want but we need to start dealing with feeding, clothing and housing people in a more sustainable way. This needs to come from the world's governments though to start. Individuals aren't going to fix the world by having two kids and driving a Prius.

Billions of animals in the world who aren't fucking everything up.

I think more than 3 DC is quite unusual in the Western world nowadays and with the amount of people who only have one or none, it is pretty much evened up.

I think that if you want to look at over population globally, start with under developed countries with little education/access to birth control/religious/cultural reasons for larger families when large families are the norm.

I can't stand people whining about over population in the UK itself who are also very pro the mass immigration we have had over the last 15 years. Statistically, immigrants have larger families than the 'native' populace, as a whole, as they come from the countries that I was referring to my previous paragraph.

Also I don't understand having children being referred to as 'selfish' in the sense of using a car that emits carbon emissions for e.g. It is biologically driven in most of us. We forget that we are just animals with an instinct for procreation at the end of the day!

Anyone who has been chewed up and spat out by NHS infertility treatment is entitled to ask this. You are made to feel that wanting your medical treatment even investigated let alone treated is selfishly eating up valuable resources. I've been around loads of friends having the 3rd child discussion but none of them ever even considered it from this angle.

I really don't understand the point to this post. Were you looking for actual discourse or just venting?

If we want to be technical having any children is selfish.

We are all selfish.

But to me there is a difference between selfish and destructive.

I made such amazing beautiful, intelligent children frankly it seemed rude to stop at 2.

There are so many ways that we mess up our planet. Cars, chemicals, warfare.... Surely it would be better to pour energy into tackling some of those, rather than trying to impose quotas on other women's bodies? I don't think it's the smartest idea to have a huge family you can't afford, no. But I also think that it is a woman's choice to have or not have children and that shouldn't be taken away. Look at the ramifications of China's one child policy and then tell me you still think that's the way we should go!

Women have fought for decades to have their body be their choice. Whether you think big families are good or bad is irrelevant - that right is nobody else's but the woman.

I think for everyone who is childless by fate of preference there are families having children over and above 3, so surely, ideologically, it would,work out that the child population would be the same as if everyone had 2 or 3?

It would irritate me more if people were having 6 children which my taxes will pay for while they don't/can't work.

I can see the argument when it comes to having more children you can personally care for.

But....

Population growth is chalengeable

overpopulationisamyth.com/content/episode-5-7-billion-people-will-everyone-please-relax

How on earth can having children be selfish. It is the most thankless, difficult, demeaning job in the world. And also the most rewarding.

Which cultures would you seem as OK to have big families then op?

There are so many ways that we mess up our planet. Cars, chemicals, warfare.... Surely it would be better to pour energy into tackling some of those

The thing is, we are capable of tackling more than one problem at a time. Being aware of one does not mean we cannot also take steps against the other.

Women have fought for decades to have their body be their choice. Whether you think big families are good or bad is irrelevant - that right is nobody else's but the woman

I don't think OP ever mentioned any quotas or imposing anything. I believe she was asking whether we should just be taking personal responsibility.

I am from a big family and hated it. I think its cruel and unfair on the children.

Population growth is chalengeable

Everything is "chalengeable" [sic]. Finding links is easy. There are also plenty of websites dedicated to exposing global warming as a myth, as well as the holocaust.

How on earth can having children be selfish. It is the most thankless, difficult, demeaning job in the world. And also the most rewarding

You aren't doing it as a favour to other people. You're doing it for yourself. (excluding certain awful situations).

Have as many kids as you want as long as you don't get offed School places of your choice( should give priority to only the first two or three siblings). Claim vast amounts of benefit to support your baby desire. Why should I pay my taxes to support your large brood. Must say I'm from a long line of small family groups. One of the main reasons for this is hard work.

It should matter thought op. Now I have fraternal twins, I have a 1:12 chance of having another multiple pregnancy. The older you get increases your chance of a multiple pregnancy. The more children you have increases the chance of a multiple pregnancy.

In two previous pregnancies and late 20's when our older 2 were born, these facts had never came up. But when you find you're expecting more than 1, suddenly you're bombarded with more information that might have been useful to decision making if given earlier.