Large Families

[Czerny88]

I'm trying to understand the psychology behind people having large families (by which I mean anything over three children, I guess). NB I'm thinking about people in the 21st century, in the West, with access to contraception and low infant mortality, who don't belong to a culture where it is particularly encouraged to have a large number of children, such as Judaism. And obviously there are circumstances such as multiple births which don't apply.

My visceral feeling is that it is often wrong on many levels. In attempting to enunciate why, I would say people should not have more children than they can afford, than they have time to care for, than can fit comfortably in their living accommodation.

And even in the case where the parents are very wealthy, have a huge house and extra support such as a nanny, there is still the hugely important issue of over-population. It feels like we are at capacity already, without room to increase the population by the amount would result by every couple having even three children.

I'm trying not to be too goady or right-wing, and I have personal reasons for the way I feel (I am involuntarily childless) so please don't be too harsh, but it's something I struggle with ideologically as well as emotionally.

So... AIBU to think that people should be more responsible about how many children they produce and not act solely on their own desires regardless of the potential effects on others? Or is that an unrealistic, draconian expectation?

I have 4 for the simple reason I didn't want to abort my boy.

If you're real concern is over population the better option would be to put a time limit on life spans.

I have more than 3

I am aware that on a subconscious levels the following factors were in play:

I am good at getting pregnant, staying pregnant, nurturing young DC (only thing I've found I'm good at)
I was trying to create a "family" (NC with emotionally devoid/absent parents)
The circumstances around my first were utterly awful, a constant trying to create a "perfect" pregnancy/situation

So yeah there is lots going on behind the scenes that drive us what is a selfish decision - some choose to have zero, some choose to have 6+ but we are all inherently selfish.

All these people saying, "it isn't anyone else's business", do you really think that?

But where does that end? What about people with multiple houses, huge 4x4s and go on lots of foreign holidays a year - they all have massive carbon footprints which has a negative effect on the planet. Or is it just large families that are a problem?

I don't know why everyone is jumping down your throat, OP. I think people enjoy getting offended, so they read the thread title and then rush to post in their immediate indignation.

So many people saying "why the hell shouldn't I??" etc. Well, OP did address that in the post that you obviously didn't read!

I personally don't want to have more than 2 children because I know that overpopulation is already a huge problem in terms of the environment and global welfare. In a few generations, it's going to become a catastrophe, so I feel a moral obligation not to contribute to it. For most people it's hard to see the bigger picture. Out of sight, out mind, and all that. Same reason we all still buy so much meat and mass-produced electronics and clothing, etc. It doesn't immediately affect us!

There are arguments to be had but to come on to a group primarily used by mothers to say 'what you did was wrong, but you mustn't judge me as I can't have children' is off.

There are a million things we do every day which are wrong. It is highly unlikely you are living in a perfectly sustainable way yourself.

"twins, which one should I have terminated?"

Irrelevant question as OP excluded the case of multiple births in her first post.

I don't really get the overpopulation argument. When you buy a car do you think about the effect it will have on the environment ? If yes then fair enough, but I highly doubt that many people think about how much their everyday actions will have on the economy or environment, people are much more selfish than they like to make out IMO.

I'm with David Attenborough on this one. But at least if the average number of children per person stays at under 2.0, things will be OK and there will be no need for any society-wide measures to try to encourage people who want lots of children not to have so many.
Which is just as well, because anyone who tries to have this conversation gets judged a draconian brute who wants to introduce Dying Rooms. And the desire to have children is so powerful in many people that in a lot of cases they will accept great physical risk, financial hardship and- in Chiba until very recently- strong societal disapproval and state sanctioned punishment. So most people aren't going to consider pressure on resources and the destruction of the world's habitats when they make their individual decision.
I think very slow population decline would be a good thing for large parts of the UK. It's said that education of women (education generally not education about contraception) contributes to a lower birth rate and I think this is the most humane and libertarian way this can be achieved.

Happyandsingle, I don't recall cats growing up and contributing to society paying tax etc...

Overpopulated? Because you feel like we're at a capacity? in what way?

www.everythingconnects.org/overpopulation-effects.html

DPT my point was its not always a choice to have X number of children.

I get 'you chose to have 4' thrown at me by a 'close' family member on a regular basis and it's become my default answer as I'm fed up of it. I adore all my children but it is very hard work and not one I would necessarily have chosen if I could have seen into the future.

Apologies if it comes across as emotional blackmail but it's more of an instant response.

i have 6 dc from 2 middle marriages [on 4th marriage], and have been on benefits up until dc2 but after that have self financed, as much as i love my dcs would o do it again when i see the state of the world now ? not really sure, and i concern for future gc if they come along [have stepgc]. i had a big family as i was an only child and because i love kids.
would never judge someone's situation though, everyone has a different story to tell, there certainly is nothing wrong with being childless and it isn't a 'brave' decision either, as we so often hear.

Pucker up, but you don't need to have two. It's a selfish choice to even have two. So why draw the line at two?

The world is not in a situation where it needs continual population growth. You aren't simply replacing yourself as you don't need replacing. You are adding 80 years of humans to a planet that doesn't need it.

Any children at all is done for selfish reasons. The OP who says she is involuntary childless would have had children..which is selfish.

All these people saying, "it isn't anyone else's business", do you really think that? Do you really believe that your contribution to increasing the population has no effect on the environment or on anyone else?

No, I don't as all our children are in professions which are caring professions. Therefore, they are helping others. As I said it's none of your business how many children people have and I think you are projecting your own issues onto others.

No need to swear!? Wow.
Take a look at the usernames, for a start. Most posters swear heavily...

The global over population problem is due to...

Women not having access to contraception
High infant mortality
Poor pensions

If those (very large social injustice) problems are sorted out in most places, then world population growth would reverse. A minority of "large" families already in the rich countries are not causing global excess population.

"Personally I'd like to see all urban areas designed to be like Spanish towns and cities, high density, high rise, with everyone cycling everywhere Dutch style (else walking). This would make us healthier (less expense to NHS), make the world cleaner (less pollution) & leave more land to share with wildlife. I'm not going to get what I want, either."

I'm not convinced more people not having gardens would be healthier/better for our wellbeing.

I do agree with you that we need to stop the obsession with houses in this country though. Why are so many people living alone in house in the suburbs when they should be in city centre flats? It's a waste of space and leads to higher house prices.

I agree you shouldn't ideally have more kids than you can afford etc.

But can afford is subjective. Being a bit tight but able to pay for them OK? How about a little bit of top ups?

I couldn't care less about over population to be honest as I doubt anything I do could change that but I know it's a ripple affect.

What matters to me is that if I had more than 3 children then I wouldn't be able to give them individual time and attention. But that's just me.

I must admit if someone has over 6 I wonder how they can give attention to each child but it's not to judge them it's out of concern for the children.

I think judging people about everything leaves everyone's heckles up. If it's not hurting you, why bother with the aggro? It's not like by judging you can change the fact.

I have none, not a maternal bone in my body so never really understood the urge to reproduce at all but accept that I'm in a minority. Don't give the choices of others too much thought though, each to their own and all that.

if they did maybe we could slowly erase the need for humans?

If someone can afford them when they have them it's no one elses business or place to judge.

If you want to go down the road of being over populated then why is it ok to have three? Shouldn't we all stop at one or two?

Why are 3 kids acceptable but 4 aren't? Why is 3 such a magic number of acceptability.

OP on population growth you might find this interesting:

overpopulationisamyth.com/content/episode-5-7-billion-people-will-everyone-please-relax

This thinking is futile, no matter what you think or feel about large families people will continue to have them for a billion different reasons. Yabu and ridiculous.

Pucker up, but you don't need to have two. It's a selfish choice to even have two

That's very true. I never claimed to be perfect.

So why draw the line at two?

Obviously it's very difficult to ignore our biological drive to reproduce. Two is where I drew the line for the reason you alluded to. Maintaining the global population is at least better than increasing it even further.

OP if you just want to be arsey with people for having children, fine. Say that.

I think it's a waste of time judging people's situations. It won't benefit you in any way. And given your sensitivity about being unable to conceive, I pointed out that you were wasting energy watching what other people had.

But given you only want to discuss the matter from a social anthropological standpoint, I would ask why you want any children at all if you're worried about over-population?

I mean if it's something that concerns you, would your social conscience be more at ease if you chose not to reproduce at all?