Large Families

[Czerny88]

I'm trying to understand the psychology behind people having large families (by which I mean anything over three children, I guess). NB I'm thinking about people in the 21st century, in the West, with access to contraception and low infant mortality, who don't belong to a culture where it is particularly encouraged to have a large number of children, such as Judaism. And obviously there are circumstances such as multiple births which don't apply.

My visceral feeling is that it is often wrong on many levels. In attempting to enunciate why, I would say people should not have more children than they can afford, than they have time to care for, than can fit comfortably in their living accommodation.

And even in the case where the parents are very wealthy, have a huge house and extra support such as a nanny, there is still the hugely important issue of over-population. It feels like we are at capacity already, without room to increase the population by the amount would result by every couple having even three children.

I'm trying not to be too goady or right-wing, and I have personal reasons for the way I feel (I am involuntarily childless) so please don't be too harsh, but it's something I struggle with ideologically as well as emotionally.

So... AIBU to think that people should be more responsible about how many children they produce and not act solely on their own desires regardless of the potential effects on others? Or is that an unrealistic, draconian expectation?

Is there a cultural pressure for Jewish people to ave large families or is that a wee bit of casual anti-semitism there? I know a lot of Jewish families and none of the have more than two kids!

witchy, for orthodox Jewish people there definitely is. If you go to Higher Broughton in Salford where there is an ultra-orthodox community the houses are massive because the families are so big. 8-10 children being the norm. There is a belief that it's the purpose of life and what we're put on earth for. I've actually heard that from the horses mouth.

Most families who are devout members of a religion tend to have many children. Orthodox Jews, devout Catholics, Baptists, Mormons. Definitely Mormons.

To single out Judaism when most ultra orthodox religions encourage large families seems a bit goady to me.

"There is a belief that it's the purpose of life and what we're put on earth for."

Well it's as good a reason and at least as plausible as any other I've heard.

I think these people are too rare to give a crap about really
I think that you would be surprised about how many of these families DO exist.

I have 3 children. m DP isnt me DD7 bioligical dad but he suports her he is DD2 and DD3 dad. i am a stay at home mum. my DP works we want a 4th baby. i find closer age gaps easier then larger age gaps (personal choice)..Our children are looked after clean fed they go without nothing and they are so so loved i love being a mum and i feel like its what i was made to do. we can also afford a 4th baby so many people have big families so us stopping at 3 when many people are still having more then 4 children is going to make no diffrence to the climate or global warming. i also study with the OU. and one day i want a caree but right now at home with my children is where i want to be. my DP is happy to support us all ( We have things in place should the worse happens). I dont judge people that have none or one child but i tell people we are trying for a 4th i get really dirty looks it doesnt bother me normaly but being so openly judgemental bothers me.

Yes and if you go to areas like Burnley and Luton you will find the same in Pakistani Muslim families. Parts of London have it now with Somali families. And less so nowadays, but once upon a time it would be that way in Liverpool with Irish Catholic families.

And I know a town where there is a Plymouth Brethren community and they commonly have around eight children as well.

I called my sister a goady fucker the other day. She was confused.

I think that you would be surprised about how many of these families DO exist.

I agree. On MN alone it always astounds me at how many people have more than six children. I very rarely meet anyone with more than four or five in real life, but they are clearly out there in quite large numbers.

Nope, vrey small numbers in fatc!

Yes, there is cultural pressure for orthodox Jewish people to have large families and no, I am not anti-Semitic. It's the first mitzvah in the Torah. There is also similar pressure in some other communities. It was an example. Hence my use of the words "such as".

And as for indicating which children I think shouldn't be alive - oh, kill them all! Because clearly I'm an embittered, barren child-hater who can't bear to see the evidence of anyone having managed to procreate.

Now, who wants to be the first to go the whole hog and accuse me of proposing another holocaust?

Yes, there is cultural pressure for orthodox Jewish people to have large families and no, I am not anti-Semitic. It's the first mitzvah in the Torah. There is also similar pressure in some other communities. It was an example. Hence my use of the words "such as".

And as for indicating which children I think shouldn't be alive - oh, kill them all! Because clearly I'm an embittered, barren child-hater who can't bear to see the evidence of anyone having managed to procreate.

Now, who wants to be the first to go the whole hog and accuse me of proposing another holocaust?

I've got three and want more because Jesus said.

:o Lol, not really. Just being a goady fucker

DH and I are Christians but not crazy about it. He's a Catholic and wanted to try NFP (rhythm method, ovulation tracking, whatever you want to call it) twice.

Both of those times resulted in a little boy. Our girl in the middle was tried for. Do I want more? Probably. We'll see. I'd like to adopt. But I don't feel "done", no. I'd rather not have any anytime soon though. DH mentioned casually that we should try NFP again and i screeched "are you fucking kidding me, have you MET your sons" and that was the end of that.

We are all different with various circumstances. It is impossible to decide what the optimum number of kids are for each family as no two situations are the same. If we are looking at capping, I would certainly agree that benefits should be limited and people should not have kids if they cannot knowingly provide for them.

Fluffy they must all be on MN then!

Although i do think there is something about MN that draws in people whose families are in some way 'niche', in a bid to find others with similar experiences, for example parents of autistic children, parents of adopted children, bereaved parents or same sex parents or whatever, and those people are very vocal about their situations and experiences so if you are on MN long enough and often enough you start to have a slightly skewed perception of how common their circumstances are, when compared to the actual figures.

I have seen loads and loads of people on MN over the years claiming to have eight, nine or even more children yet in RL I think I have only ever met one mother of 8 in RL. (she was Roman Catholic.) Other than her I have met very few people with more than 5.

Wow OP, exaggerate much?

I think that you would be surprised about how many of these families DO exist

People with loads of kids, or people with loads of kids on benefits who pop out extra for more cash?

As those with 4+ kids already will not be getting 'benefits' for extra kids, due to the benefit cap. estimate. Income support 100 per week. Rent 100 (low rent area) per week. Council tax 10 per week. 210 per week.

• 3 kids 60 ish child benefit 240ish tax credit = 510pw (-10 already as cap is 500)

So...any more than 3 kids is already chopped? So anyone having more kids for benefits is incredibly thick tbh, as they get nothing extra per child.

Around 1 in 10 families has 4 kids or more...interesting

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/08/17/uk-family-size-statistics_n_7996768.html

However, overall average family sizes are still falling in Britain according to the data.

A 45-year-old woman now typically has 1.9 children, compared with 2.35 in 1985. The report suggested this change has been driven by greater numbers of women going to work.

Particularly interesting^

So even with more 'large' families, the average kids per family has dropped..

Totally proportionate reaction from the OP there ... o_0

I think what witchywoohoo was trying to get at is that in your OP you just said Judaism, nothing about the Orthodox. It's tarring us all with the same brush rather. Lots of Jews have perfectly average sized families and in fact the general consensus is that the UK Jewish population is decreasing...

I have 5 kida and had 3 miscarriages so that's more than 5 pregnancies...

I don't think you need to be minted (you won't be anyway after, say No 3)... But you should have jobs/be able to support them. I know families of 2 kids where both kids were conceived after both parents were unemployed and I think that is 'more wrong' on the Sliding Scale of Wrongness... So some 'small' or 'perfect sized' families (perfect according to the prevailing culture) should offend OP more than my big family.

There is definitely a different dynamic in a larger family and in my experience - myself being one of only 2 kids - being a big family has been great and much more fun.

People ain't afraid to show disapproval. Once I had Child 3, my brother and SIL never bought our kids a single birthday present or even sent a card. Like the 3 younger ones were punished for being born (and the 2 older ones...) I only felt the cultural opprobrium at Child 3.

Given that I find my two children hard work I have often wondered why people do want large families...but everyone is different. One of my reasons (admittedly well below finances/logistics/space/exhaustion) for not having a third was concern about over-population, although I know that yes, I could have had one or none. On the other hand, resource consumption is arguably a greater problem.

I also wonder how common larger families actually are? When I was at school (80s and 90s) two-child families were definitely the norm. I know quite a lot of mums who have three but have never met anyone with more than four.

Some have said that they have large families but live a more low-impact lifestyle than people who have one or two... is there any guarantee that, for example, six children brought up in a relatively low-impact way will have a similar lifestyle when they are older? Six people are bound to consume more resources over their lifetime than one person would.

Lastly, there might also be all sorts of reasons why people choose to have large families that are less obvious. For example, I remember watching a documentary about some Holocaust survivors who had lost nearly all or all of their entire extended family. I remember one of the children of the survivors said they decided to have about four children, because they wanted to give their parents a really big family.

OP
So if your argument is that people stop because resources are finite, eg love money etc, then why do you object to those of us who have larger families where there is no shortage of those resources.
My kids have 2 parents to help run them to their choice of activities, they have had birthday parties (soft play to paintball to clay pigeon shooting to swimming to cinema trips depending on dc's interests)
All the larger families i know well have ended up with a number of delightful, well balanced young people doing interesting things and on course for well renumerated careers.
Folk keep harping back to the impact on the planet ( like you all really based your reprodcutive decisions on that) and i will argue that low impact lifestyles become the norm for one owns children as they enter adult hood.
My family of six almost certainly has a much lower environmental impact than a family of four i know well who fly on holiday six times a year, or those who buy ready meals in their excess packaging, or replace their cars every 3 years, or rip out perfectly functional kitchens/bathrooms etc because they fancy a change. The difference is i am not having a go at them in the same way that you seem to feel having more than 2 kids makes me open season for attack.