to ask would you send your eldest Dc to a grammar school?

[var12]

Hypothetical question... if there were grammar schools in your area and your DC1 was offered a place, would you accept it?

It's the tall poppy syndrome that's holding this country back to be honest

Of course it is.. when the vast majority of the best jobs go to the privately educated.

I'd say it's more a lack of meritocracy.

countess I have worked at comps where that attitude is most definitely prevalent.

Certainly not because the teachers don't care, or are no good at their job. But, because they are under enormous pressure to make sure pupils get those C grades.

They do not have the luxury, or time, to 'focus' their attentions on already gifted students. I mean, yeah...we'll put them in a top set, but really they can virtually teach themselves.

I know this, I have seen it in action in the comps I have worked in. I am an English graduate, with post grad studies under my belt and a qualification that allows me to teach in a FE college.

But, when I was working as a TA in comps, in English lessons, both me and the teacher were focused on the kids who were struggling. I never got to work with the more gifted kids, where maybe I could have given some useful input, beyond the basic lesson content. And, the teacher only usually gave them slightly differentiated work, and they were left to get on with it.

You could interpret it as a lack of meritocracy, or you could consider that the privately educated have two distinct advantages that enable them to get the best jobs:-

1. Their parent's and their school friends parents tend to have good paying jobs else they couldn't afford the fees. And what goes with good paying jobs? Contacts who can offer internships that deliver experience for a CV.
2. Private schools would lose the most able students to other private schools unless they provided an appropriate education for those cleverer children. So, no inverted snobbery there.

MaQueen - that's not good, not satisfactory at all. However, at least it was English, where differentiation is a bit easier to achieve - imagine if it was pythagorus theorem ^again" in maths?

IME, the top of the top set in comprehensives do not get taught. The top set has maybe 10% who are there as a confidence boost to a student who would be usually somewhere in the set below, and the whole class slows to work at the pace of the slowest. Its not a big deal if you are only working marginally faster than the slowest, but if you are top 1% and the other child is top 25%, then the difference in ability is night and day.

DS1 is in year 10. Ds2 is in year 8. Even if this new legislation went through parliament and was law by next Easter (which it won't), it is too late for my sons, isn't it?

Oh they've no interest in getting my DD from a B to an A even though that could be the difference between Oxford or not for her. It annoys me it really does

Oh they've no interest in getting my DD from a B to an A even though that could be the difference between Oxford or not for her. It annoys me it really does

because schools get measured on percentage who get 5 A*-C including English and Maths. The number who they send to Oxbridge doesn't get reported or compared about. Why though, I do not know.

"Today 16:35 var12

no bright children need to be educated, not placed in a holding pattern. failure to do so results in problems. Not every child is effected, but a significant minority are.

Its not as if the school places would be created out of thin air either. The state must provide these children with a school place one way or another. But I think you know that."

I don't understand your post at all actually. Of course academically gifted children need to be educated one way or another- as they are now, without grammar schools available in most areas.

furthermore if we're going to be bullied for being "smart" or "swotty"- well there is always a smart or swotty. Cream off the 15% academically gifted and the smart or swotty at the compremsive are simply the next layer down of clever. There will always be a clever layer- what do you propose we do about clever children in comprehensives being bullied when we have grammar schools everywhere?

I still don't understand why people think that describing poorly delivered comprehensive education is in any way an argument in favour of more grammar schools, rather than one for improved comprehensive education.

'Avoiding uncouth parents' at least has the advantage of some kind of logic.

Exactly var. My DD2 is at a grammar, which creams off the top 20%, so the whole school is one, huge top set.

DD2 has just made the top set for maths, so she is in the top 5%. The slowest pupil in her top set is still the top 5%.

If DD2 was at a comp, the academic spread of the maths top set would be much, much broader, likely just the top 25%. There is a world of difference in ability between my DD2, and a pupil who is only just inside the top 25%.

I know, now, that people will be insisting that their comp has 10 sets for maths. And maybe it does. But I have never worked in any comp that had more than 3 sets for maths.

don'tyoulovecalpol
I don't think people are too bothered about the children who don't attend a grammar school, as long as that doesn't include their own. They can be bullied for being the cleverest; they can be taught to the test; they can be denied the opportunity to take challenging courses; they can be told that their highest aspiration should be too, erm "work with people". Whatever. As long as it's them. Not us.

Which bit don't you understand?

And how on earth do you come to the conclusion that they currently get educated? Do you actually have any experience of this or do you just think this is the way it is?
Are you saying that because they pass exams eventually? (BTW some become so disillusioned that when the exams finally come along, they have no habit of working, or really just can't bring themselves to start caring again and fail)

"to".

that was to Dontyoulovecalpol

that was to Dontyoulovecalpol

multi you can try and improve comprehensive education, and God knows it needs it.

But, try as you might, you will still get huge swathes of parents and their children who couldn't care less about education, or homework, or exams. And their presence inside the comp is going to have a very negative effect.

var, your comprehension is a bit off. Did I say there wasn't a problem? Nope. I said that 'more grammar schools' isn't the answer; effective comprehensive education is. Why? Because it takes the needs of all children into account, not just those who are good at passing exams.

As for my experience - ask me again in five years' time. It's going well so far; but it's early days.

X-posted. Apologies.

Maqueen - Ds1 is at a comp with 8 sets for maths and he's top 1% too - ukmt merit etc. You'd think that would mean the top set would be the top 12.5%, but no, because the school moves up students who need the confidence boost of being able to say that they are in the top set, even though there are more able students than them in the 2nd and 3rd sets.

Var- most areas in this country do not have a grammar school system.

Dontyoulovecalpol - I know that. Why is it that relevant to describing the experience of very able students in the top set at a comprehensive?

That's just not good enough var is it? At least at DDs grammar, a place in the top set is very hard won, no 'vanity movement' between sets. And, if you can't keep up, you are bumped straight back down.

Maqueen - and I forgot to add, don't think that moving 3 non-top set ability students into the top means that they move 3 out to keep the numbers even, because they don't. They just make the more able classes extra big in order to make the bottom set as small as possible so that they can really give the least able maximum attention and to hell with the other end of the spectrum

All the schools that I have experience of (as a teacher/ trainee or a parent) have 8 sets for Maths, English and Science.

DS1 is at a Grammar school, he had the final decision as our state provision is excellent. He loves it and is thriving. I think he would have done at the local state school though in all honesty, it's excellent.
My worry about DS1 going to a grammar was what the other children and their parents would be like. Thankfully they are not obnoxious and snotty.