to ask would you send your eldest Dc to a grammar school?

[var12]

Hypothetical question... if there were grammar schools in your area and your DC1 was offered a place, would you accept it?

betrand - sorry, but some basic maths: top 1% means one in a hundred. There are multiple hundreds in Ds's year, therefore, on average, you would expect more than one top 10% child in that year. As it turns out, there are 2 or 3.

I think the size of the comp school matters greatly. Many of the subjects are taught mixed ability here as there aren't enough students to create ability based classes, particularly at GCSE. I think that does lead to less coverage of material and a poorer quality experience for those at a higher level.

Work was so often not differentiated leading to my DD doing far less than she was capable of. I was faced with "well so and so only did this and it was ok..."

For comps to work I think they need to be much bigger.

multivac - thanks for your advice about where to go to be taken seriously. However, it strikes me that you wish to drive me away from the regular boards as you don't like my opinion.

Now, I don't agree with yours (at least one this). However, I more or less respect it and don't want to obliterate you to somewhere that I don't look. Ok I didn't have much respect for the old chestnut about taking responsibility for learning but otherwise....!

Don't you think it is possible, that due to my having a different set of experiences from you, I might have a different, but no less valid, perspective, and moreover I might actually have a point that the status quo does not serve the most able as well as it serves some of the other segments?

typos:
Bertrand, sorry, but some basic maths: 1% means one in a hundred. There are multiple hundreds in DS's year, therefore, on average, you would expect more than one top 1% child in that year. As it turns out, there are 2 or 3.

"Work was so often not differentiated leading to my DD doing far less than she was capable of. I was faced with "well so and so only did this and it was ok..."
Mine would only say that once........

The taking responsibility for your own learning is a very important part of the stretch and challenge ethos. Its not supposed to be just more work, or even more difficult work. Teachers should be pointing kids in the right direction, or differentiating by task, but its not simply more work. Without the taking responsibility for it the challenge element is severely diminished.

Var, you really are twisting and turning on the 1% thing now aren't you? In the top 1% in his year is different to being in the top 1% of students.

The problem is also that you are taking your personal experience and extrapolating that so that you can try to supoport a policy. You quote Michael Wilshaw when his quotes suit you, but ignore the fact that neither he nor OFSTED, nor the DofE are supportive of creating more grammar schools. Every piece of research shows that grammar schools are not good for social mobility, that the high achieving children that get in achieve broadly the same results in comprehensive schools, that the effects on those left behind are more damaging than the benefits conferred on those that get in. In effect, that grammar schools don't work.

You have also been massively dismissive of the teaching profession and others experience, and quite frankly your ideas of what a grammar is, how they operate and what could deliver for you are naught but flights of fancy.

"I was faced with "well so and so only did this and it was ok..."

Back to the taking responsibility thing again aren't we. OK your kid didn't get stood over by the teacher pushing her to do more, but if that is necessary is it really the kid being challenged, or is it being forced?

He's top 1% of students for maths across the population. The school is a comprehensive with no selection bias for IQ. Therefore it can expect, on average, to have 1% in the top 1%, 10% in the top 10%, 50% between 25th and 75th centile etc.

I know maths was not your subject, but this is basic, and you should have been able to comprehend this level in order to get your first degree. TBH I don't know how to put it any more plainly, so if you really don't understand, then I can't explain it any better to help.

"Therefore it can expect, on average, to have 1% in the top 1%, 10% in the top 10%, 50% between 25th and 75th centile etc"
Well, no it can't. Not if there's a grammar school in striking distance that you are regretting not sending him to.........

I don't think I did quote Michael Wilshaw - did I?

FWIW, I am not dismissive of the teaching profession. I am, in fact, hugely respectful of it. It has its bad apples, like anything else, but they are few and far between. I think i have repeatedly said that my issue is with the system, not the people who work with in it.

TBH you are letting your evident dislike of me crowd your judgement. I don't like you either.

betrand , the one grammar school does not distort the intake in any significant way because it serves a very wide area. Maybe there is one pupil there who would otherwise be at DS's comp, maybe there are none, maybe a small handful, but its not enough to make a difference. I don't know anyone whose child goes there. I have never heard of anyone.

My DC take responsibility for what they do out of school, but not in school. In school, they submit to the teacher's direction. Anything else would be anarchy (i.e. disruptive)

My children are being actively encouraged to take responsibility for what they do in school, as well as out of it. There's no need for an artificial divide between 'school learning' and 'home learning' (earlier on, or in another thread, you referred to self-directed study at home as 'not real study, just stuff that interests him', or words to that effect, which I found a rather odd attitude).

If you want your kids spoonfed, then fair enough. But as mentioned earlier, even in a grammar school you're likely to find the spoons too small.

bertrand you may only find out the once. It is a very difficult thing to argue about to a teenager. They see they are doing ok, for their cohort - but you know there is a much bigger stage. Now you may argue, well you check. Every lesson? Every subject? Every day? Bearing in mind I have several children. Many times there was no homework. Do I set some? There were learning points that were missed out - oh we aren't doing that as its only if you want to get an A grade...

You are expecting me to become proficient in what's needed for each and every subject at every level. Or my child to be. And that is what she was, a child. You do become responsible for your own learning, but that is a process too and until then I think the teachers should be there to facilitate and guide to your level.

Several trips to school, meetings, exhausting.

As a result I ended up having a lot more input into the learning process than what I would have liked. I never intended to home educate, yet that is what I ended up doing, after school to cover all the material. Yes it looked like she achieved at a comp, but it was really done at home.

KS3 is spoonfeeding. the teacher is in charge of the class, and she decides what they all do. Its not independent research. Maybe some homework is, but not the lessons where they are all looking at the whiteboard or filling out some printed out handout.

The only way that DS2 could vary from that and "take responsibility for is own learning" would be to decide to not bother with what the teacher is leading the class on, but to go off and learn about something else. Obviously, if he didn't understand something he'd be responsible for putting his hand up and doing what it took to get to the point where he gets it, but otherwise that really is such a meaningless phrase.

If I had written that I oblige my children to study each evening, whether they want to or not, whether they are interested or not, then instead of the sneering "odd attitude", you'd be sneering that I am hothousing them.

What do your children do, Not? Are they lazy, hothoused or odd (because those seem to be the only available options!)

In fact my child did do extra at home. In physics they were learning about light, so we made a pinhole camera. She took it into school and was told to go out into the corridor with it as the teacher didn't want it disturbing the nice video she had planned, which was Happy feet. It's was good school apparently. The other children were keen to watch a video when they had chance.

And subsequently teased my DD relentlessly for her interest in work.

Var, you have changed what your definition of the 1% is to suit your needs each time you use it. First of all he's top 1%, then this isn't exceptional, when pointed out to you that it is you change it back.

Even your point about the percentiles fails to acknowledge that the concentration of students wouldn't be so, in fact because of the presence of selective schools in your area, you'd probably expect there to be fewer than 1% of the students in the year in the top 1% and that they could possibly have lower than 10% of students in the top 10%. In fact I know for a fact that many, many schools don't have any students who score in this percentile.

Please question my understanding and education again, you have quoted ofsted and the "failing able students" point several time and linked to articles that quote Wilshaw.

Oh and for all your twisting, you still have failed to present a relevant argument for grammar schools other than: " I think it would be better for my child."

KS3 needn't be spoonfeeding; it isn't at my sons' school. In their first lesson of Y7, after some consolidation, they were encouraged to 'go and learn something new', which they did (and continued for home learning). They can also book 1:1 tuition time at any point, whether it's because they feel they are struggling, require more challenge, or just need some general guidance.

I realise this isn't the case at every school, of course. But I've never claimed that the status quo is ideal; simply suggested that segregation isn't, in my opinion, the best way to improve it.

I don't understand what you are saying in your third paragraph, sorry.

PS sorry, I should have been clear, I was talking specifically about maths when I said 'in their first lesson...'; the approach to teaching and learning, however, is consistent across all subjects.

It does occur to me that grammar schools would be more able, and likely to be able to offer an extra curricular orchestra for example. Or Latin for example. Strength in numbers I think. Neither was available at the local comp.
my DD really enjoyed Latin for which she ended up doing a distance learning course. So I think her interests were not well served by the local comp.

I don't think my DD2 interests were served well by the comp system either. She is certainly not very academically able and has hated being with other girls that she sees as much more able than herself. I think it has affected her confidence very much.

But what if Latin wasn't available in your grammar? If your comp is small then wouldn't the grammar be more likely to be so too? The size of the school shows what it can support and what it can't.

Also the orchestra thing? Many of the local authority music services have been hit in the cuts, instruments are no longer loaned in many areas and the number of peripatetic teachers has dropped/ fees been introduced. I'd say this might have something to do with the lack of orchestra, not all, but it'll be a reason why there isn't one, less kids are learning instruments.

IT may not be available in a grammar, but I'd say it would be more likely to be so than in a small comp.

I agree that less children do seem to be learning instruments, but I feel there would be a greater number available to play in a grammar school.

It depends on the size of the school, if you are in an area served by a small comp its likely that a grammar school would also be relatively small.

With the resources available these days schools everywhere are cutting and limiting options, even Camden Girls school has had to limit some of the options because employing a teacher to teach classes under 10 is just not viable these days.

There may be a greater number of children available to play in a grammar, but then they are statistically likely to have more middle class, and less deprived students.

Are there no county/area orchestras to attend outside of school?

var12 Mon 19-Sep-16 12:08:23 The only way that DS2 could vary from that and "take responsibility for is own learning" would be to decide to not bother with what the teacher is leading the class on.

Can I ask how he will know what is covered in the GCSE sylabus if he does this? The lessons will be valuable for learning what will be covered in the exam if for nothering else, surely?

Can I ask what year your DC is in?