to ask would you send your eldest Dc to a grammar school?

[var12]

Hypothetical question... if there were grammar schools in your area and your DC1 was offered a place, would you accept it?

We have no grammars. We have one huge comprehensive school. It is outstanding and sent 4 kids to oxbridge this year. I am not sure what they are doing right but we are very lucky to have it. Before we sent dd there for 6th form she was at a (admittedly non selective) independent school. The teaching and organisation at the comprehensive is far better. I wish I hadn't wasted my money!

Maybe theask, but aren't 6th forms selective in their own way anyway? i.e. you can't get onto the courses unless you've got 5 or more GCSEs at level c or better. That rules out 46% of the population.

I get the impression for some people Grammar schools and the 11+ represent a fair way to separate those that come from poorer homes who are bright from the less bright pupils.

I took the 11+ in the very early 70s like my fellow classmates. We all went through the motions knowing the outcomemail even before we had picked up our pens. We lived in a predominantly white middle class area. Those that had a bought house and 2 parents living in the family home went to the grammar, those that didn't meet the criteria went to the secondary modern. How else can you explain how my best friend, who came from the council estate who was top of the class in everything by huge margins apparently failed the 11+ but our other friend , who could barely read and write and was always bottom of the class but lived in the posh estate with SAHM and executive father passed.

Personally I have found the grammars I have been round really stifling. I always come out thinking that they are great as long as you want to work in an office. If you want to do anything different then they are not for you

I can't explain that at all! I thought the 11+ worked like an exam - blank piece of paper, write your name and your answers to the best of your ability, get it marked and have your score added up.

But you are saying it is more of a form asking for details of the parents jobs and marital status?

I've just had a revelation. Despite being obsessed about schooling (one of my earliest memories is reading 'Comprehensive' on a school board, asking what it meant and deciding if like to go to one as I liked the idea, Socialist parents obviously sold it well 😉) I've only just worked out what's 'wrong' with education in England.
Society! You'll never get a really comprehensive school with a comprehensive intake because parents send posh/ sensitive/ easily lead/ so bright they'd be bored dcs elsewhere.

Oliversmumsarmy
I've never heard such a clear cut example, I'd like to think her parents chose not to send her. Certainly I've heard loads of stories about token wc child a year, essays set on 'what I did last summer' my favourite pony, and there were definitely interviews aka screening testsand incredibly expensive uniform requirements.

My DD goes to a grammar and no one has ever asked about whether we have a posh house or huge income!

I absolutely will be sending my children to the local grammar school if they pass the exam. In fact, I think I will be (secretly) upset if they don't get in. I would never ever tell them that, but I would simply because I know the school is excellent and the "normal" schools in the area are not as good.

I know this from personal experience having started secondary school in a comprehensive school and then transferring to the grammar school.

To be honest, it wasn't so much the quality of teaching or level of education that was the big difference... it was being around students who wanted to learn that made a big difference. At the comprehensive the bright students were just left, not challenged, and attention was given to those who needed more help (rightly so) and there was a lot of disruptive behaviour. I just liked being in a class where it was rare for kids to be getting told off. I thrived once I moved schools. Obviously this is just my experience with these two schools alone and perhaps my first school was a "bad" one, but back then it was the one that everyone at my junior school went to... so I did too.

My DD is not what you would class as academic and therefore we didn't spend time, money and stress trying to pass the Grammar school entrance exam. (Unlike the parents of her more academic classmates, who were paranoid and obsessed by it.)

My DD went to an academy.

Roll on 5 years and my DD has matched/surpassed her classmates in most subjects, including English and Maths.

We only bought a few practice papers for the 11 plus, and not overly stressful .
Quite a bit of snobbery locally as to whether child goes to grammar or academy, but also a lot of bitchiness from those who go to academy.
My older DD goes to academy and I can't fault it. Suits her

Yes I would send any DC to a grammar, if they were academic and passed the exam.

I didn't to to a grammar, but went to a "good" secondary school. There lessons were full of low level disruption, bright people were not being stretched, so were bored in class and although there was ability streaming, it was really hard to move up, even though people in higher groups shouldn't have been there and because they didn't want to break up friendship groups and/or couldn't be bothered.

I took the 11+ in the very early 70s like my fellow classmates. We all went through the motions knowing the outcomemail even before we had picked up our pens. We lived in a predominantly white middle class area. Those that had a bought house and 2 parents living in the family home went to the grammar, those that didn't meet the criteria went to the secondary modern. How else can you explain how my best friend, who came from the council estate who was top of the class in everything by huge margins apparently failed the 11+ but our other friend , who could barely read and write and was always bottom of the class but lived in the posh estate with SAHM and executive father passed.

I don't know, Olivers, what form did the exam take to give such different outcomes to how children were performing in class? I can see, perhaps, your clever friend being overcome with nerves and not doing her best, but how does that explain the child who could barely read passing?

Yes and yes I suppose. I am not a fan of selective education but will always do what is best for
My eldest (is my youngest a bit thick? ) which may involve going against my principles. It's just the way it is in real life

My DTS took their 11+ yesterday so my answer is yes.

If we could get into a good comprehensive my answer may have been no.

I work at an outstanding comprehensive and I would be over the moon if I was eligible for my kids to go there or if we could afford to move into catchment.

Incidentally, some of the school's teachers have been on loan to the local grammar, teaching sixth form.

Yes, I live in an 11+ area and although dc1 is year2 and dc2 is preschool, can already see dc1 is more likely to pass than dc2, but wouldn't deny dc1 their appropriate education just to save dc2's feelings.

It helps that all the grammars are single sex here so even if they both pass they would be going to separate schools, but if either fail I'd worry about sending them to the academy in our town, it has expanded massively in the last couple of years, but parents with dcs there are complaining about bullying, and lack of pastoral care. Personality wise, dc1 would cope with a large secondary school, not sure if dc2 would.

(I'll probably tutor for 11+ too, either paid for or us going through past papers, everyone round here does, so it's not so much buying advantage but buying a level playing field)

But you are saying it is more of a form asking for details of the parents jobs and marital status

The school know your address and from what I have read since they were asked for feedback about the suitability of a candidate for the grammar school.

This was an on going issue. Everyone knew what was happening. It wasn't just my year. It was a bit of a running joke.

On a side note, quite a few kids from the comprehensive my sons attend go to the grammar for sixth form (the comp only serves KS3 and 4, alas). After five years of trust, responsibility and developing independent learning skills, they tend to find the spoonfeeding at the grammar restrictive, not to mention deeply dull.

I'm always intrigued at the narrative, by the way, that seems to suggest that it's only 'bright' children who get bored in school.

Head teachers did used to have a lot more say in who went to grammar schools, not just off the test results (as it is now), so allowing twats like Oliver's old head to manipulate the results. (Also as well as the exam, there would be a catchment area and you couldn't normally get in if you lived out of catchment, even if you passed, and the grammar school would fill places from the "best of the rest" if enough didn't pass in the area, as funding was based on number of children - being allowed to apply to schools out of area has only been an option since the early 90's)

A 'proper' grammar school? Yes One like our local which is populated by over tutored or ex prep school pupils, children travelling from crazy distances ? No .
Just looking at the car parks on the days of the test tells you all you need to know about the intake.

DS1 is taking his 11+ in a fortnight, so yes, if he passes I will be sending him to the local boys' grammar.

Tbh I struggle with this a bit as I agree with others that a good, comprehensive education should be available to all. And yet, this will not happen whilst parents of the most able choose to send their children to selective or independent schools because they will do better there (like I am doing!).

Previous posters have commented that, in Comprehensive schools, far more attention appears to be given to those who are least able, whilst the most able are left to their own devices. This was certainly the case for me almost 30 years ago. I went from being top of my primary class by miles to a year or so later getting very average results and spending most lessons laughing at the back of the class with my mates. I hid how able I was - I would never in a million years have put my hand up and answered a question in class as that was social suicide! If I'd been sent to a grammar school or similar, I think I would have thrived in the company of other kids who wanted to learn and weren't embarrassed by their abilities. I did do well in the end, after very mediocre GCSE results I went to a sixth form where taking pride in your work was encouraged, did very well and got into a good uni.

I could absolutely see my experience happening to DS1 in a year's time. Once he becomes one of 200 kids in his year group, he could just switch off and no one would notice unless he created trouble. So I am keeping my fingers crossed that he passes the 11+, whilst also feeling uncomfortable about it all. The fact that it is a single sex school worries me too - I am trying so hard to instill my feminist principles into DS, if he barely sees a female for the next seven years surely he will view women as some kind of alien species? Will have to think about how to counteract that.

DD was offered a grammar place, we would have accepted even if it meant her travelling to the next town but she was also offered an academic scholarship to the Private school 5 mins from our house so we went for that instead.
I have no issue with grammar schools but we had to be very proactive in applying for the 11+ etc and many parents didn't realise it was even an option ( possibly because the only local grammars are in the next town to us). I think that the schools should identify which children should take the 11+ and do the tests in a low key way at school. This will mean that the children who's parents can't or won't guide them through the system will get an equal opportunity because at the moment it's down to the parents to get their children into grammar rather than just the children's academic ability.

Those that had a bought house and 2 parents living in the family home went to the grammar, those that didn't meet the criteria went to the secondary modern. How else can you explain how my best friend, who came from the council estate who was top of the class in everything by huge margins apparently failed the 11+ but our other friend , who could barely read and write and was always bottom of the class but lived in the posh estate with SAHM and executive father passed.

Are you suggesting the whole system was completely fixed?!

Id send my DC to whichever school was best for them be it grammar, comp or private.

It wouldn't change my deep dislike of grammar schools (or religiously selective schools).

Grammar schools are awful. Truly awful.

As it was my DC all went to a non selective state school 3 minutes walk from our house and all did well. They are all at Uni now. One is doing medicine the others are doing stem subjects at good RG Unis. I wouldn't have hesitated for a moment if I thought they needed to go to private school or if I had thought they needed a grammar. Are you trying to suggest it's hypocritical?

I think that the schools should identify which children should take the 11+ and do the tests in a low key way at school. This will mean that the children who's parents can't or won't guide them through the system will get an equal opportunity because at the moment it's down to the parents to get their children into grammar rather than just the children's academic ability.

They do that in my area for those who receive free school miles. They also receive a certain amount of free tutoring from one of the grammar school (not sure what this involves) and the "pass mark" to get in is usually a bit lower than for everyone else.

miles meals.