FURIOUS! AIBU to not return my DTSs to school on Monday? Blood boiling!

[SaggyBaggyPuss]

This is way too long but I can't make it any shorter and I've spent an inordinate amount of time trying to so apologies in advance!

DTSs have been at their current secondary since Yr7. It is an outstanding school and very highly thought of so I was delighted they got in. It is not the nearest school, about 45 mins walk away, but the closest one, 10 mins walk away, was in Special Measures when we applied for Secondary.

In the first term of Yr 7, DTS2 was diagnosed with ADHD, severe learning difficulties (mental age 4-5 years below actual age) and working memory problems. We had waited 2 years for diagnosis at that point and had pushed for an assessment since Reception Yr but Primary School labelled him as naughty and did not support my view that there was something wrong with him. I contacted the secondary school before he started there and requested a meeting to explain that we were awaiting an assessment, discussed low level 'silly' behaviour difficulties that DTS2 had, together with the fact that he was 4 years behind average attainment. I was also very anxious about the transition as I knew he would struggle.

No support was put in place from the start, they basically ignored what I told them despite him being on School Action+ all through primary school. He did not have any plan/IEP drawn up until the 2nd term of Yr7 after I pushed for it and was left in mainstream lessons until I bugged them to put him in SEN classes. Apart from a few silly incidents where he retaliated to being called 'retard' etc (he has an odd gait and other kids have picked up on his LD's), constant detentions for not doing homework (impossible for me to make him) and forgetting things, things were reasonably OK until he started Yr 9.

I had applied for a statement of SN's (EHCP) for him in Yr 7 as soon as we got diagnosis but it was denied as the school had not shown that they had offered him support. I did not know at that point that I should have appealed.

There were a few incidents of other boys challenging him to fights after school (he's over 6ft and the smaller boys wanted to 'take him down') and he did not have the maturity to ignore. The name calling started up and as he did not report it (was afraid he would be blamed), when he called names back the other kids would report him.

Anyway it all came to a head when he was threatened with permanent exclusion for persistently breaching the school's behaviour policy but a lot of it was minor - forgetting equipment, pushing the gate buzzer for too long, not going to registration because he was hiding in the toilets. He was regularly put into isolation as well and not getting lunch as he was not told to go.

At this point, I started getting angry too late and asked the school what they were doing to support his SEN and his behaviour. I had an awful meeting with the Head who denied that his LD's, ADHD and memory problems would affect his behaviour so according to them he was deliberately being 'naughty' and apparently DTS2 agreed with this, when asked .

I then made a complaint against the school for discrimination of DS due to his SEN as the school said they could not make 'reasonable adjustments' for him as they had to treat ALL children exactly the same. The Chair of the Governing Body did not address my complaint at all and only discussed putting him on behaviour report. I asked for a response to my complaint in writing and it was ignored.

I asked if they could get an Educational Psychologist in to see him and they refused. I also asked for the school to apply for a statement of SEN themselves and they refused so I applied again myself in March this year and this time they agreed to assess him for one and I should find out next week if they are giving him one (looks likely). I found out when I asked the school to provide me evidence of what support he's getting I had to create a massive fuss for them to tell me and they ignored my requests that it is virtually nothing and even they said his attainment is 'worrying' from looking at his assessments but they still did nothing to support him .

It is evident that they have been trying to get rid of DTS2 as he will impact on their results. They have told me that if he can't settle and learn, they would prefer to offer his place to someone on the waiting list who can. They have also blatantly lied - telling the Education Authority that they never threatened permanent exclusion when I have an email from them saying this, and I was phoned every week with the threat of it if he did not get enough points on his behaviour chart, and denying that I had given them DTS2 medical reports detailing his diagnosis so they weren't aware of it . I have had to constantly fight them for support for DTS2 and was told that it was an utter nightmare with calls most days telling me he was being put in isolation.

I had decided to move schools for both DTS's as DTS1 who was in top set for everything has gone very downhill recently and has also experienced low level bullying and he said he wanted to move too, but was trying to wait until we had got confirmation that DTS2 was getting a Statement (EHCP) so support would be in place for him from the start.

The new school is our catchment school which is now out of Special Measures and has had a major turn around now, and DTS1 has friends who are already there. I applied for a transfer for both of them at the end of June hoping that there would be enough time for the school to process it before they broke up for the summer hols and the DTSs could start there when they went back this week, but I was informed on the last day of school (after constant chasing with no response) that they had not even looked at my applications as they were 'too busy' and I would have to wait until Sept for them to contact me. This week, I have been told that I will have to wait until next week for them to contact and they cannot guarantee my places for the DTS's despite them having places available! I am now getting paranoid that they don't want to take DTS2 as I had told them that he has SEN and we were awaiting a Statement and I left a message for the SENCO (in early July) to call me to discuss whether they can support DTS2. Again no response! As they are now trying to push up their results, perhaps they don't want a kid who won't pass any GCSE's, the same as his current school ?

SO the DSs went back to current school. On Tuesday (2nd day back at school) DTS2 got into a fight after school. Apparently a friend of DTS1, tried to push DTS2 in some bushes and chased him (off school grounds) with another boy, he then kicked him, so DTS2 thwacked him with a tree branch that he was playing with and knocked the boy's glasses off. The boy then punched DTS2 in the head and kicked him again before DTS2 ran off. DTS2 told me about this as soon as he got home and asked DTS1 why he was friends with him (this boy has called DTS2 names on Facebook previously) shortly afterwards, DTS1 got a text off the boy saying that he was sorry that he'd had to punch DTS2. He denied kicking him first though. DTS1 texted him back that what he had done was not on and that I would be making a complaint to the school in the morning. The boy then replied that DTS2 would be in more trouble than him as he had a witness - his friend who was with him at the time.

I rang the school first thing the next morning giving DTS2's side, asking for this to be investigated. I then got a call about an hour later telling me that DTS2 was being excluded for 3 days and I was to pick him up immediately for 'violent abuse' of another pupil. I was confused and asked if they had spoken to DTS2 and they said he had admitted hitting the boy with the branch but had not mentioned that he was attacked at all. They said the issue was still being investigated and they did not know who had made the complaint. I said why was DTS2 being excluded when they hadn't finished investigating and it was ME who had made the complaint. The 'pastoral care manager' would not let me speak and just said the decision had been taken by the Head, it would not be discussed further. She was extremely rude and patronising on the phone. When I got there to pick him up, the story had changed and I was told the investigation HAD been concluded and it was the other boy's mother who had made the complaint. There was no record of MY complaint apparently. I asked had they spoken to DTS1 so they could see the texts the boy had sent him. They said it didn't matter. I asked if the other boy had an invisible injuries (as DTS2 had) and was told it didn't matter. I was so furious I was shaking. DTS2 told me that he had not been given the chance to put his side across, just asked if he had hit the boy with a stick, which he said 'Yes' to.

When picking up DTS1 from school that day, I saw the other boy come out from school smirking at me so he had not been excluded. I am not aware if he has had any sanctions and I can only assume that they have accepted his story that he did not attack DTS2 at all. My complaint about him has not been responded to.

Now I would expect DTS2 to get a sanction for 'retaliation' as we have told him time and again, if someone attacks you, walk off and report it (hard enough for any teenager let alone with DTS2's ADHD impulsiveness) but I do not expect him to get a greater punishment (exclusion) than the other child who hit him first who it seems, has not had any sanctions as they have taken his account that DTS2 assaulted him only.

There was a previous incident where a boy admitted punching him first and then DTS2 pushed the boy over and DTS2 was isolated for a week while the other boy involved was not.

Today on day 3 of his exclusion I have finally received a written explanation of why DTS2 was excluded (after having to quote the education act to the Head). It should have been given to me within a school day according to guidelines. It stated that DTS2 was excluded for 'assault' against another pupil. I have to take him for a reintergration meeting on Monday and really can't trust myself not lose my rag.

Due to this, the new school may refuse to admit him as they did say if a child has had an exclusion, they can decide not to take them so when I finally hear from them, DTS2 may not get in anyway.

I am so angry at the school that I do not want to send either DTS back to current school so I don't have to deal with them ever again and want to keep them at home until I hear from the new other if they will accept them. DTS1 has been off school sick for the last two days as he did not want to go back to the school either as he is worried that this 'friend' will start trouble with him too. I don't give a fuck quite frankly about attendance. Both of them have had 100% attendance for the 3 years they have been there.

AIBU to keep them off? WWYD?

From now on keep a paper trail of everything. Follow up every phone call with an email reiterating what was said.

For example I have a friend whose etc.

This thread is about a boy with SN whose needs have been neglected by his school for a very, very long time.

There is a vast difference between the reaction of a pupil with SN and an NT pupil to the same stimulus.

I'm going to ask MN to move this thread to the SN boards to divest it of all the NT behaviour/consequences comments as they are less than helpful.

No real advice just a bit of sympathy I know what it is like dealing with some of these people.

I pulled my son out and Home Educated for a bit. Wasn't a perfect solution and our problems were different from yours but the situation was not getting better at school. I did it for his mental health and to protect him from having to go in everyday. There have been difficulties so not a recommendation as such but it might be an option.

Knowledgeable people on here might have some advice

Daily mail that's completely untrue.

He has been excluded for three days, not permanently and he does not yet have an EHCP.

blankmind this boy was on SA+ so also has SN...

honeysucklejasmine - in my case it was a newly taken over academy. I was left in no doubt that it was all about the results.

That's my concern, Chikara

YANBU, disgusting treatment :( keeping him safe is what matters

FWIW I pulled my DCs out of school due to bullying, it was a snap decision as I just couldn't bear to force them in anymore, but it was absolutely the best decision I ever made.

OP - In a similar but milder situation we appealed against my son's permanent exclusion. I reluctantly accepted a place in an exclusion centre having being assured by the LEA official that he could take GCSEs there. After a happy and productive 18 months for my son there the excellent temporary head applied for the permanent post. It was given to a thuggish man with a very different approach and no insight. When I asked about theGCSEs I was told 'We don't do them here.'
Keep full records of everything and trust no one! All the best.

OP I am another one who suggests you get this thread moved.

However I am puzzled as to how long the move is taking as I am pretty sure that they have to deal with a move within a set amount of days. (when we moved dd2 in year 7 - 4 years ago - I am pretty sure that it was 28 working days)

I would start by following that up.

Also contact the SEN teacher in the " new" school again and arrange a meeting. Take a friend and have friend take notes.

Agree with the poster who said to put it all into writing under subheadings and with as many dates as you possibly know for each item.

Follow everything up in writing and ensure you have it backed up somewhere.

I fucking despair of this place sometimes.

The assumption that the NT children have done nothing wrong, the complete disregard for the challenges that a child with multiple health needs will face and the impact on that child's behaviour, the willingness to write off a child who is struggling. It's no wonder there's such a high percentage of parents of children with additional needs receiving treatment for mental health problems, or that they report feeling isolated and judged.

Deciding where the best place is for a child to be educated is a heart wrenching decision. Getting a place is bloody difficult in the first place, but writing off all the non academic aspects of learning in a mainstream setting when you send your child off to specialist provision, the knowledge that labelling is a real issue with long term effects versus your child not being vulnerable because they don't understand the social rules of society and therefore can't play the game. It's a hard decision, and the OP has had no support from school whatsoever.

I manage to get through life by making an assumption that at heart everyone is good, and understanding - but then I come on here and it makes me want to move to an island away from awful people. The only hope is that this forum isn't representative.

I also think you should refrain from using terms like 'low level silly behaviour difficulties' and 'thwacked him with a tree branch he'd been playing with' because it can sound as though you are minimising or excusing bad behaviour and taking your son's probably rose tinted version as gospel.

The simple fact is that his behaviour is bad/aggressive/disruptive most often for reasons outside of his control (his conditions) and because of the constant bullying and goading he receives as a result of that. He is existing in a constant overwhelming state of frustration, fear and fight or flight. He has been thoroughly inadequately supported up until now.

If anything I think you should not be minimising his behaviour but be focusing on exactly how bad his reactions are to what he suffers at the hands of his peers. ie, 'he was goaded, teased and physically pushed around by boys who know exactly how he will react, to the extent that he lost control and hit a boy with a large stick. Had he been left alone and not constantly hounded in this way then the incident would probably never have happened. How are you supporting my son with his LDs and protecting him as per your bullying policy?'

You should be demanding that he is put into a more tolerant environment where the set up is all about anticipating and knowing how to handle aggressive or emotional outbursts, instead a system that seems only capable firefighting against it, and where the staff give just take the path of least resistance.

Brilliant post Leave

He is the sort of child prus have been set up for, and the sort of child that could potentially do very well there

This is nonsense. PRUs were not set up to deal with children with severe learning difficulties: they are not special schools, and putting children with such difficulties together with children who may have been excluded for violence, selling drugs and the like is a recipe for disaster. They are defined as being established for pupils who excluded, sick, or otherwise unable to attend a mainstream or special maintained school - none of which applies here. .Furthermore, they are not generally meant to offer long term placements. The notion that what is needed to help with learning difficulties is primarily "control" is really quite bizarre. What is needed is teaching and therapy that addresses the child's needs.

You can still reapply for an EHCP, unfortunately you are realising too late that the reason "excelling" school excel is they take measures to make sure children with any needs that will affect exam results are quietly removed, and exclusion and refusal to engage in any adjustments are their weapons of choice.

Don't go quietly make a lot of noise and be "that parent" look at the advice here.
I have seen it too many times unfortunately

She doesn't need to reapply , she applied in March he is being assessed and she finds out next week if they will issue an EHCP. If they do, she can then put forward names of schools.

Thank you Judy. A PRU was suggested by DTS2's Head of Year when I went into complain about him constantly being put into isolation and I was actually optimistic that it could help him (before I had checked it out!) but was dismissed by the Inclusion Manager for exactly the reason you described. She said he 'would be eaten alive in there' and anyway it was full!

With regards to a Special School, he would need an EHCP for that which is why I have been fighting to get him one for 3 years! The local SS here were incredulous that he was not already there when I rang them explaining his difficulties and checking if they would admit him.

If it was up to me, he would have been in a SS years ago but his Primary did not support me with getting him assessed and my GP said the school would have to request the assessment. It was only in Yr 5 when he was so far behind that they agreed that something other than laziness, lack of motivation and him being an immature, spoilt, naughty child was at play.

He was referred to a paed for suspected ASD and 2 years later, when he was finally assessed, they said he did not fit the criteria as he made eye contact - which was something I had had to drum into him constantly. It came out that his IQ was 70 so he is borderline learning disabled.

I was going to get a private EP (£700 which is cheap apparently) in when an EHCP assessment was declined the first time but was told by the school and the LEA that they would not necessarily pay any attention to an EP they had not engaged themselves . He was seen by an EP twice in Primary and on getting his school report when he left, I saw that the recommendations that had been suggested were not carried out. Another 'outstanding' school.

DTS2's school have told me that he has never displayed any 'aggressive' behaviour in school and but reacts to situations (same as in Primary). I know this very well as I have seen how he and his twin interact. They do sometimes have punch ups (because DTS2 is gobby to DTS1, he knows DTS1 is much more clever and able than him and he displays his resentment in this way) but DTS2 has NEVER thrown the first punch. He will generally try to push DTS1 away. He does not ''fight' as such. It is more childish wrestling.

The boy who hurt her DS apologised by text to his twin. What more evidence is needed that he was also as involved? The school refused to look at texts or aknowledge op complained because it didn't suit their agenda.

Unless you've been there it's really hard to believe it happens. I wouldn't have until now I've seen it first hand.

And for the poster that asked my DS school is an academy.

Sometimes you have yo be "that" parent.

My local school is a wonderful Ofsted outstanding, we live in a leafy village environment - I have chosen to send my school to a school with a unit attached in a deprived area 12 miles away. The pastoral care is million times better.

Sadly being 'that' parent doesn't help either. It may DS academy fight me harder because they realised I had the knowledge to use the terminology and quote the relevant sections which would hold them accountable to providing support.
Then the LA used me being 'that' parent to deny DS an EHCP assessment as they said issue was school not taking relevant and purposeful action.

The system is soooo flawed it's heartbreakingly unreal.

I am aghast that given the school that teaches him day in day out must know he has a below average IQ and some significant delays in emotional and intellectual development that they should be recommending a PRU before they consider supporting you in a bid to move him to a special school with a behavioural specialism. It's just outrageous.

Go back for the ASD assessment the whole eye contact issue is bollox my son has always made eye contact, and I was told he was a classic presentation other than this, my friends son was assessed twice before his diagnosis because she like you is drummed into him to make contact.

I am like the other poster I have sent my son to a run of the mill school because the pastoral care is as important as exposing the children t new skills and ideas exam success is a happy bonus if it happens not the be all and end all. You are at school a long time exams are only a few months in your whole school career they should not dominate.

youarenotkiddingme. I would never have believed it either without experiencing it firsthand. The first time I rang an SEN helpline and explained what had been happening, they immediately said that they had dealt with lots of similar cases where the school tries to stress the parent out so much, that they remove the child so they are not their problem anymore. I was incredulous!

Can I also reiterate that I saw the boy DTS2 'violently abused' with the leafy end of a branch and there was not a mark on his face.

I have tried to explain DTS2's behaviour 'quirks' to the school many times. No, it is not usual for a 14 year old, 6ft 2inch boy with size 13 feet to play with sticks and jump up and down trees, pretending he is a Marvel Superhero. It is very normal for DTS2 though. He will always find a stick whether we are walking to Tesco or on a walk in the woods and spin it around and hit inanimate things with it. No amount of telling him that it is not appropriate will stop him.

Too often, as pointed out above, 'outstanding' schools are just that because they are oversubscribed, and can 'cherry pick' their students.

"Outstanding' schools often have a weaker SEN department, simply because they don't want too many SEN students, so they can justify refusing SEN by saying that they can't meet the child's needs.

If an older child is at the outstanding school, then siblings usually are offered a place. If that child then hasn't had his SEN needs met, problems such as those outlined by the OP arise.

PRU is not the place for SEN students. However some schools who haven't meet the SEN student's needs, thus the student's behaviour becomes the bigger problem, will refer.

A school with a robust SEN policy, a good SENCO heading up a specialist team of qualified teaching assistants is the only way. Small class intervention led by qualified SEN specialists (my job), alternative exam provision, functional skills rather than GCSEs for example.

ADHD can be addressed, the student can thrive. When it is ignored, or not recognised, it can spiral into poor behaviour. Then the behaviour is dealt with, not the SEN issue which caused it.

When OP considers the new school it must be after a meeting with SENCO and the agreement that testing will be carried out, support will be in place, and intervention to target his needs are met. All the results from this will strengthen a place for the ECHP.

But an EHCP is not a magic wand. I work with students that have them, others that don't but should, others that no longer need them. I treat all of them as individuals, and have the training and experience to unlock their barriers to learning.

Many schools that meet the SEN student's needs are not the "Outstanding' ones.

Op if you are not already claiming dla for your ds then ring for a form on Monday.
The money can be used the pay for private ed psych etc.