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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think home schooling should be better monitored?

676 replies

Mollymoo78 · 09/09/2016 21:05

One of my FB friends from my toddler group days has announced on FB that she's home schooling her four year old. She was always very very attached to him and never had a moment away from him ie a night out. She breast fed him well into his fourth year and carried him in a sling when he got tired. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm genuinely wondering if her decision to home school has more to do with her being reluctant to let him go.

Her comments on FB are "well I have no precise plans as to what I'm going to do but they learn through play at this age anyway so it doesn't matter". I just felt quite uncomfortable reading that. It all sounds very vague. My dd has started school recently and loves it - the socialisation with her peers and older children, the physical activity, getting independence and rewards for her achievements. She's playing yes but she's also being taught to read and write. But what if this boy isn't given these things - who is going to be checking up on the education he's being given?

I don't mean to put a downer on homeschooling - I've no doubt it's the perfect option for those whose children don't gel with school but shouldn't you at least try school first? Am I wrong to question this in my mind?

OP posts:
gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 10/09/2016 13:59

potentially abusive

SquirrelUpATree · 10/09/2016 14:00

What rules and regulations would they be?

NickiFury · 10/09/2016 14:01

They don't give a shit. All they're bothered about is control. Any rational person would accept that whilst it's annoying for the good folk who do educate and take care of their kids, there should be monitoring to protect those who are being let down.

I find it interesting that this is the conclusion you've come to despite posters having provided evidence on quite a large scale to support that they're home schooling out of necessity not choice and children with SEN are being failed on a massive scale, in fact you've hardly addressed those points. WHO is going to inspect and monitor us? Those who failed us?

People like you who are unable to see any point of view but their own despite discussion on a large scale and clear evidence to support our case, are the reason people don't want to be monitored. What if we got a "professional" as obtuse and incapable of comprehending anything outside their own dogged opinion as you seem to be? Imagine the pain and stress that could put on a family who've already been suffering for years and have finally found peace in HE.

SquirrelUpATree · 10/09/2016 14:07

I grew up in a perfectly normal home. My mother had MH issues but my (wonderful) dad mainly raised me and was active in PTA etc. I excelled in school.

When I was 12 my dad died, my mother had a severe psychotic breakdown and quickly remarried a man who was a pedophile and involved in child sex trafficking. He convinced her to write a letter saying she was going to home educate because I was having emotional problems dealing with my dad's death.

For the next two years, I was not allowed to leave the house and literally did not speak to a single person outside of the two of them and men they'd bring home. If I'd been able to have ANY contact with another human being I would have told them. Or definitely anyone who laid eyes on me for two seconds would have spotted it.

There were no red flags since we'd been perfectly ordinary up to then. We were not on SS radar at all and there was no reason for us to be. Not visiting a GP or a dentist for a couple of years didn't raise any red flags since teenagers use medical services a lot less than infants and young children. A healthy teenager might genuinely not need to visit a GP for a couple of years.

If there had been ANY form of safeguarding process or monitoring for kids pulled out of school, it would not have happened. Period.

The fact current safeguarding systems sometimes fail is not an argument for not having safeguarding systems at all! If even one child is saved, it's worthwhile.

Charley50 · 10/09/2016 14:10

GingerIvy - some homeschoolers on this thread have said they would object to any monitoring visits.

I agree that children with SEN should be better catered for a schools, and that more funding should be ring fenced for this.

I also think that all LAs should monitor the well-being of HE children, not just some LAs. Maybe the 'good' home educators could work with the govt to set out guidelines and ways this could be implemented, that could help protect the minority of children that are neglected, radicalised, or abused under the guise of HE.

OlennasWimple · 10/09/2016 14:10

There are various rights and responsibilities around HE that don't quite match up with each other...

  • parents are responsible for ensuring that their children of compulsory school age are receiving an appropriate education
  • LAs are responsible for providing a school place for any child in their area (though the school place may be at a crap school or in another area)
  • LAs remain responsible for safeguarding for ALL children, regardless of their education provision
  • LAs are responsible for checking that the education provided by the parent is suitable BUT
  • parents have the right to refuse to allow an LA official to enter their home for the purpose of checking the education provision, and to refuse to allow the LA official to see their child

For me, the last point is crucial: I support parents' right to choose how best to educate their child, and deplore the SEN provision in many schools, but I think that if a parent chooses to opt out of mainstram education they should be opting in to allowing their home to be visited and for their child to meet with an LA officer. I see no reason why a parent providing a decent education and a safe home environment would refuse to allow someone to see that. Big alarm bells to me - but without other reported concerns about a child (a report from a neighbour, perhaps) the LA have no right to seek access.

MindSweeper · 10/09/2016 14:12

nicki I haven't thought about who would inspect and monitor, I am simply arguing for the necessity of it, which the majority of you have said a resounding no to despite the risks that have been detailed in this thread, the risks that have been demonstrated by case studies and that we've had posters speak about personally. You have been shown stats that state over 20% of abuse is reported by the LA and schools, yet do not think there should be anything to mitigate the fact HE are being denied that safeguard.

The funny thing is nicki I am all for HE if it's done properly, so this worry that you'd find a professional 'incapable of comprehending..' is ridiculous. I'm perfectly capable of comprehending different ways of educating, what I am not willing to accept is children being made even more vulnerable than they already are and going off the grid.

What do you suggest then, to people like squirrel? You are telling people like them that what happened doesn't matter and shouldn't be prevented because your rights to 'peace' and educating without even a 10 minute annual assessment are more important.

I wonder how many more people suffered what squirrel did. I don't know how any of you can have the audacity to continue to state there is no need for monitoring when someone has just spoken candidly like that about how HE allowed her abuse to continue and facilitated her isolation.

NickiFury · 10/09/2016 14:13

I'm so sorry squirrel. That's one of worst things I have ever heard.

I think it does depend though, I was badly physically abused for years by my mother, I told many people, teachers etc. I went into school with facial bruising and black eyes. I did nothing at school, was physically present only. No one ever did a thing to help me. I'm sure there are decent schools and staff who would step up but that was never my experience for myself or my son.

MindSweeper · 10/09/2016 14:13

The fact current safeguarding systems sometimes fail is not an argument for not having safeguarding systems at all!

Exactly. 'oh well they don't always work so it's perfectly okay to have none'. Because that makes sense Hmm also ignoring the fact children are saved but we don't get to hear about the victories, just the failures.

Charley50 · 10/09/2016 14:14

Flowers Squirrel and Oleanna that last point is troubling.

ImperialBlether · 10/09/2016 14:16

Nicki, I don't think schools would deal with a child with bruises and black eyes like that nowadays. Horrible you went through that but hopefully those days of turning away from a child clearly in need have gone.

ImperialBlether · 10/09/2016 14:17

I meant those days of teachers turning away.

MindSweeper · 10/09/2016 14:19

Hiding this thread now because it's making me feel sick

squirrel I am deeply, deeply sorry that happened to you. I hope that in the future we have safeguards to prevent something like that happening to another child. Thankyou for sharing your story Flowers

NickiFury · 10/09/2016 14:20

You are telling people like them that what happened doesn't matter and shouldn't be prevented because your rights to 'peace' and educating without even a 10 minute annual assessment are more important.

I am doing absolutely nothing of the sort. Quote me where I have said anything remotely like that. Do not extrapolate my posts to suggest that please.

I am saying my OWN and my child's experience and those of many children I personally know do not support the monitoring and inspections suggested on this thread.

As I said previously, I engage with our local authority because having given it much consideration, I find it easier for US. For others it's not easier and they don't want to and that is their choice. Just as it is the choice of parents not to engage with Health Visitors - a stance that gets much support here on MN.

You haven't thought about who would do the inspections, you've barely addressed the experiences of those who are actually in the thick of it, maybe you should, then your argument might hold more weight and not just appear that you haven't considered any viewpoint outside your own.

SquirrelUpATree · 10/09/2016 14:25

I am saying my OWN and my child's experience and those of many children I personally know do not support the monitoring and inspections suggested on this thread.

I'm sorry but that makes NO sense. You're a good loving parent, thus you don't need monitoring. Ergo, abusive HE parents shouldn't be monitored either?

It's like saying, "I don't commit crimes so we should get rid of the police."

For others it's not easier and they don't want to and that is their choice.
What about the ones whose "choice" is to abuse and rape their kids?

NickiFury · 10/09/2016 14:28

Have you read my posts squirrel? About my child being assaulted in school? About all the children I know in the home ed community whose local authority couldn't wait to see the back of them?

Makes perfect sense to me and many others on this thread. Just because you don't agree it doesn't mean it makes no sense.

Charley50 · 10/09/2016 14:30

Nicki - the same people who are supporting SEN at school could do the inspections; e.g. The money to do both of these things should be found.

Even some of the HE on here are saying that there are 'nutters' within the HE movement, and these are people who actually engage with other home educators.

This thread reminds me of buy-to-let LL threads, so many piling in to say how great they are at what they do, and refusing to look at any problems within the bigger picture.

FireSquirrel · 10/09/2016 14:30

The powers LAs have are more than adequate. They can make informal enquiries into the educational provision being provided, and if they believe that provision not to be suitable or if they receive evidence to suggest that a suitable education is not being provided they can issue a notice to satifsy or ultimately a compulsory school attendance order. Their duty, just like social services, police etc. is a reactive one rather than a proactive one, home edders are presumed to be providing a suitable education unless there is reason to assume otherwise, which is as it should be. In this country we are innocent until proven guilty. Those suggesting that home edders should be proactively monitored will presumably also welcome regular social services monitoring of their own children and regular police searches of their home to check for evidence of crime; afterall, nothing to hide nothing to fear, right? Should school kids be monitored in the school hols when teachers aren't around to keep an eye on them?

It is senseless to compare school ofsted inspections with home ed. Home education is the default option for education in this country, and even though many (most) people choose to outsource this by sending their child to a school, parents are still ultimately responsible for their child's education regardless of where the child is educated. Even if your child goes to school, the responsibility for ensuring they receive a suitable education still lies with you, the parent. Ofsted inspections exist because the school is answerable to parents, it is providing a service and parents need to be aware of the quality of that service to ensure that by sending their child there the parent is fulfilling their duty to provide a suitable education. Parents who are fulfilling that duty themselves rather than outsourcing it don't have any use for an ofsted inspection.

In the handful of Serious Case Reviews where the children in question were home educated, they WERE known to local authorities, often to multiple different authorities for years before they came to harm. These children weren't failed because they were home educated, they were failed because the state failed in it's dury of care and didn't use the perfectly adequate powers it had to ensure their welfare. I don't know of a single case of a home educated child who came to harm and who was truly invisible to the authorities. Take the recent case of Dylan Seabridge who died of scurvy, in news reports he was claimed to be invisible due to home ed and yet if you look into the case, local authorities WERE aware of him but didn't act.

Home educated children aren't invisible. If anything they are more visible in the community than many school kids. My children are seen by neighbours, at the shop, the supermarket, parks, soft play, at their home ed groups (some taught by home ed parents but others by private tutors) at their mainstream classes. Lots of the people who see them on a regular basiss are professionals who are trained in safeguarding. A home ed child out and about during school hours sticks out like a sore thumb and on an average day we get stopped multiple times by nosy/interested people, we are anything but invisible! You could argue that home edders with something to hide may stay at home and not take their children out and about, but surely then they're conspicuous by their absence?! No children are truly invisible, all kids are registered at birth, a child who hadn't been seen by a doctor for ages would be a red flag in itself. I can't even put the bins out without my neighbours seeing me, let alone hide my kids. If anything it's an argument for more sense of community, for neighbours to look out for each other more and to report concerns if they have them. As I said, the evidence doesn't support this idea that home ed kids are invisible - in all the serious case reviews where home ed was a factor the children were known to authorities. The problem is often that different agencies don't communicate properly with each other and share information properly.

School isnt a garauntee of safeguarding either. Daniel Pelka anyone? Eating out of bins right in front of his teachers and still allowed to starve to death. I believe his mother convinced his teachers that he had an eating disorder and so his behaviour was left unreported. Often primary aged children are only taught by one or two teachers, it can be easy to pull the wool over one or two people's eyes, much harder to do that in a home ed community where the kids are seen by multiple different parents, tutors, group coordinators etc.

If anything, home educators are unfairly over scrutinised rather than not scrutinised closely enough. A recent study using FOI requests from LAs found that home educating families were considerably more likely to be referred to social services, yet it was significantly less likely to result in a child in need or child protection plan than for school families. Studies of outcomes for home educated kids find that they generally do well educationally and socially and many adults who were home edicated have now gone on to home ed their own kids. The evidence just doesn't support this idea that home edders are abusing, neglecting or failing their children, educationally or otherwise.

NickiFury · 10/09/2016 14:31

squirrel because of our experiences, we will never agree. I was badly abused while attending school, you were badly abused when you weren't. Both of us were failed badly but I don't agree that being in school protects children because that is just not my experience.

GingerIvy · 10/09/2016 14:31

Due to safeguarding concerns, things are different now than they were years ago. A child being withdrawn from school for mental health reasons without any prior indication of SEN or medical problems should have someone (most logically the school nurse) following up on that information or flagging it to CAMHS or GP. I have no way of knowing if this type of thing was in place when squirrel was in school or not. If it was, then she was badly let down. If it was not, then that surely indicates why they put those type of systems in place now.

I and my siblings attended school, church, numerous community activities, but the abuse was never noted, never acted upon. I made a couple attempts to bring it out into the open as a teenager and was basically ignored by school officials.

It also doesn't help that many schools report parents to SS the moment they withdraw their child from school to home educate, even if there are absolutely no safeguarding concerns present. It's a massive waste of funding/time for SS, and frankly I find it alarmist and unnecessary. It also shows an appalling lack of knowledge on the part of the school about home ed laws. So many times I've seen parents say that the school has wanted to meet with them to discuss providing support for their child with SEN ... AFTER they've deregistered. The school is not interested in stepping up the support while the child is registered, no matter how much the parent begs and fights for it, but the moment the parent says "no if you're not going to support them, I'll be forced to educate them at home"... THEN the school says "oh wait..." It's appalling and happens a lot. IMO it illustrates that these schools are not looking out for the best interests of all the children, but rather at their bottom line - funding.

SquirrelUpATree · 10/09/2016 14:31

Have you read my posts squirrel? About my child being assaulted in school? About all the children I know in the home ed community whose local authority couldn't wait to see the back of them?

So we're back to "safeguarding systems don't work perfectly so we should just not bother to try to stop abuse ever."

If monitoring saves even ONE child it is worth it.

LoucheLady · 10/09/2016 14:32

Eight-year-old Dylan Seabridge died of scurvy in Wales in 2011 while being home educated. There was no register of HE families and no contact with the authorities for years. Clearly it's an extreme case but I'm shocked that there appears to be no mechanism for checking up on the welfare of HE kids.

JenLindleyShitMom · 10/09/2016 14:33

Of course children can learn from going to supermarkets, but that is the kind of learning parents should be doing on top of education.

If the children are learning then it is education. Education doesn't start and end with pencils and jotters. Or with maths and English.

NickiFury · 10/09/2016 14:33

The money to do both of these things should be found.

I couldn't agree with you more. I just know it will never happen.

My youngest also with autism - desperately needs SALT and OT - she will never get it, I have been straight out told that. She's in school. There's no money for the kids in school. They don't give a shit about the ones out of it.

SquirrelUpATree · 10/09/2016 14:43

The powers LAs have are more than adequate.
You know more about it than me, so I'd really like to know more information about what powers they have. Someone upthread posted that they can't legally monitor or check up on HE kids unless there's a complaint or some other red flag.

In the handful of Serious Case Reviews where the children in question were home educated, they WERE known to local authorities, often to multiple different authorities for years before they came to harm.
You are ignoring the cases where abused HE kids were NOT known to local authorities and there were zero red flags.

Home educated children aren't invisible. If anything they are more visible in the community than many school kids.
Only SOME HE kids. You're ignoring the abused HE kids who are invisible.

surely then they're conspicuous by their absence?! No children are truly invisible, all kids are registered at birth, a child who hadn't been seen by a doctor for ages would be a red flag in itself.
Only true for young children. A teenager not going to the GP for a while is not a red flag since most teens don't need regular medical care.
Can you give some examples of other absences, and who would be in a position to notice these absences?