To think that people who worry about gender stereotyping their kids are a bit OTT

[ilovemonsters]

I've Nc'd so if I get flamed/biscuits the shame won't stick

So I know this is a hot topic and I might get slandered here but I've seen a lot of posts in threads where parents are worrying about gender stereotyping their kids and I've just seen a post on a Facebook page saying "my daughter loves playing with a scratty old hand me down doll at my parents house, is it appropriate for me to buy her a nice new doll or am I gender stereotyping her?"

I really want to post and say "oh FFS your kid likes dolls let her play with a damn doll!! Not every frigging toy has to be rainbow coloured and gender neutral for goodness sake!!!"

Or am I horrendously out of date and crushing my daughters' souls by just letting them play with whatever they like playing with whether it's a doll, a ball or a tea set?!

Trying to appear gender neutral is ever so fashionable atm but fucking pointless IMO.

Your child will be gender stereotyped every moment, by you and your family (possibly unconsciously), by other parents, by teachers, the media, their friends.

I can't personally be bothered with it. You could drive yourself nuts trying to be completely neutral.

Anybody who thinks they can actually raise their child entirely gender-neutral while living in the real world is deluding themselves. Unless they are living in a cave far, far away from all civilisation

I like talking about it with my DSs now that they are all old enough to have more grown-up conversations with. Although DS4(6) is still at the 'girls are stupid' stage....

I say let kids be kids, my ds' favourite toys are his pram and his dinosaur

I agree it's weird. It's a new fad that's popped up and no-one in RL I know would ever dwell on this non topic, ever, yet it's a vortex on MN.

Gender stereotypes can be damaging if applied in the extreme, but these gender nazis seem to want to make an issue out of absolutely nothing. The idea of allowing a child to explore gender boundaries etc is way way way more damaging and confusing than raising a child as the gender the child, you know, actually IS.

I'm not saying girls can't be tomboys etc but when parents celebrate girls wanting to play football and deriding them for wanting to play with dolls I just think they're a bit mad. I also find it irritating when parents impose their politics on their children and you see all these little boys with long hair dressed in tutus being encouraged to pay with dolls and the parents parading him around smugly like a badge of honour.

Just let kids be kids not everyone has to be gender neutral and decide on a gender when they are seven, they are BORN with a gender, just go with it.

It doesn't hurt (on the contrary) to aim for gender neutrality. Although, I do agree that we have to accept that it is impossible.

Children do go through a phase of defining their gender identity, and seem to feel the need to find a way of distinguish themselves from the opposite sex while asserting that they belong to their. It can't be avoided, I don't think. It does become a problem when one is seen to be superior to the other, or children are forced into those roles, with no option for overlap.
As then later they go through a phase of detaching from their parents and starting to get attracted to the opposite sex, which they derided just a few years before.

As an example, DS has grown with all kinds of toys. OK, not Barbies, but then I never found them particularly appealing either. He chose his toys, or they were given by relatives and at parties.
They included lots of cars, balls, some construction (he's not very fond), a kitchen, a vacuum cleaner, a baby and crib, some crafts, etc.

Curiously, when my niece comes by she goes to play with the "girl" toys that we have. And that belong to DS. :) Some of which were also a favourite of another cousin.

The point is that they were available, as far as possible we didn't assign value to none of the toys, but we were happy for him to play with what he wanted, and never pushed any particular type, although wheels and balls were always his favourites.
I'm quite happy with this type of "gender neutrality".

But, perhaps more importantly, he sees me do things that fathers do too. And he saw his dad do things that could be more commonly done by mothers.

Regardless of his preferences in clothes or activities, I'll just be happy if DS doesn't see himself superior to or worth ore than women in any way, and if he doesn't feel that he can't do something because it's a female thing.
How other parents go about it, if the end result is the same, great.

And as fashions go, trying to be gender neutral can only be a good thing, rather than bad. :)

Only on Mn have I seen people talking about Gender stereotyping. Or saying things about sex rather than Gender. Never ever heard in mentioned anywhere else by people I know.

You are not BORN with a gender, gender is socially constructed.

They're born with a sex and all this 'gender' stuff is bollocks.

I've honestly never seen any parents behaving in the way suggested, imposing the opposite 'gender' on their child IRL. Is it an mn myth? Whereas reinforcing the 'right' gender stereotypes is still commonplace.

Let kids be kids, individuals happy in their own choices.

That's why it's an issue, MrsHam13.

I have a friend doing a PhD on gender studies. She's the only one who really brings up the topic in real life (as well as FB).

I've never seen the opposite gender being reinforced irl - I honestly do think that's a myth.

I've only seen an everyday mass of gender reinforcements - from boys liking pink, going to school and then not liking pink anymore - to girls saying they don;t like maths or sport and wanting to look pretty. This 'pretty' seems to be pretty much everything to a young girl.

Haven't read the thread but you are so right.
I commented on a thread a while ago when they were banging on about the Little Miss and Mr Men books.
Like they were gonna cause some sort of deep rooted damage!
I was in serious fits of laughter and the outrage of it all.

*at the outrage of it all.

Despite what sex your children may be, knittedfrog, you do them a disservice. Try RTFT.

Gender stereotypes are not good.

Knittedfrog
Like they were gonna cause some sort of deep rooted damage!
I was in serious fits of laughter and the outrage of it all.

Where do you think ordinary sexism comes from? How do you think it's maintained? How do many boys still grow up to be men that think they are better than women? How do you think women are still expected to stay at home instead of fathers, pick up the slack in relation to the children and the house, be quiet in the workplace?
Does it cause you serious fits of laughter?

Small things may seem irrelevant and OTT, but all small things add up. Change has to come from somewhere. From little things too.

Oh no, here we go again!
Seriously, they are Mr Men books ffs.
They've been around for years, show me someone whose life has been damaged by the Little Miss or Mr Men.
My daughter played with dolls and had a pink bedroom - shoot me now

Daily Mail but this is the sort of people I'm on about.

Point blank refusing to buy their daughter something because it was pink. She isn't allowed princess stuff even though she's gravitating towards it. Oh and the little girl can't take her only doll out of the house because mum is embarrassed by it.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3598047/Mums-refuse-let-girls-wear-pink-no-matter-wail-beg.html

Oh no, here we go again!
I thought you brought it up.

DS also has some. Of both.

But, seriously, don't underestimate the impact of constant little sexist influences.
No harm in keeping out wits about and counteracting those little influences when appropriate. On the contrary.
The only harm can only come from reinforcing gender stereotypes, particularly when they are restrictive.

they've been around for years, show me someone whose life has been damaged by the Little Miss or Mr Men.

It starts somewhere. Come on! Use your noddle. Unless you actually think possession of willy means they get all the powerful jobs, are more intelligent or better than women.

My DD has a pink(ish) room too - but fuck, at least be aware of it.

I think maybe when some people hear the phrase 'gender neutral' they think its supposed to apply to the child, whereas it should apply to the adults. If you offer a range of toys and activities without bias, then your child can pick and choose freely and be themselves, whether they turn out more or less in line with the old stereotypes or not is fine.

Gender stereotyping has become a 'thing' not because of mumsnet. There's a radical agenda that is hyping up gender as proof of 'girl brain boy brain'. So what you are probably seeing is a response to that and an attempt to debunk and undo gender stereotyping. The reason you might see it more on mumsnet is because if you want to have a decent conversation about this problem there is nowhere else to go on the internet.

I don't think men are more powerful at all and I haven't said otherwise.
I'm all for children playing with whatever makes them happy and uses their imaginations.
The OP said she felt it was all a bit ott and I agreed.
It's a shame that some things have lost their innocence because people over analyse everything.

It's a shame that some things have lost their innocence because people over analyse everything.

Were they ever really innocent, though, or imbued with the sexist views of the day's society?
Children's books are written by adults. They are not innocent.

Knitted frog - yes it's things like that that I mean.

I do agree that you should give your child a range of exciting and interesting toys to play with regardless of if they match the child's "gender" my DD1 thinks footballs and cars are amazing and also loves dolls and upsy daisy.

The thing I was taking issue with was how parents are actively trying to control a child's tendencies which are growing out of their natural predispositions what ever they may be. These parents seem more concern with what other mums will think of their parenting approach than they do with their child genuinely enjoying play and exploring different things.

I also think that gender is biological. A girl is born a girl - her preferences, likes, dislikes and other things are all developed and are influenced by society but gender is gender. We can't go around assuming our little boys are "female presenting/identifying" because they think dresses are cool and like "girl stuff" better than "boy stuff".

Tried my best to respond to some of the main things in this thread there. Either way m, whatever your opinions this is a very interesting thread and I'm enjoying the discussion!

We can't go around assuming our little boys are "female presenting/identifying" because they think dresses are cool and like "girl stuff" better than "boy stuff".

I think most people would agree with you on this.

Yes, those are extreme examples (although I'd be somewhat cautious, considering it's the DM...), and not something I agree with. But for every of those, there are probably 10 that will actively discourage their boy from doing ballet or wear pink, for example, or their girl from dressing "like a boy".