Speaking as a man....

[LumpyMcBentface]

'Man here'

'Male opinion'

Please just stop it. Unless your post has something to do with your genitals (in which case probably don't post it) it has no relevance to what you are about to say.

We won't all stop, draw breath, and think 'finally! A man's opinion. We can all stop debating now'.

It just makes you look like a pompous mansplaining tosser.

Green Gables

I prefer to read Fogg though.

Always read it as Andrew Fogg.

Assumed he was a relative of Peter Fogg from Postman Pat.

Good lord no. Phileas Fogg in Around the World in Eighty Days, perhaps!

Little, I am genuinely interested in why you seem so threatened by any attempts to properly engage with the topic of the thread. What Kickass wrote is interesting, reasoned and articulate. Of course you don't have to agree with it, that's your choice but why not respond to it rather than immediately reach for a cheap insult?

It's the theory of unequal reciprocity in social interactions.

Wiki has a page which gives some background here although it also looks at political as well as social.

there are some theorists who look specifically at the male/female roles of reciprocity. I haven't read the paper, but going on the bibliography & abstract, this paper looks good on the division of housework here

I'd like to engage with what KickAss said earlier:

It is much rare for women to be able to openly and honestly discuss things without the male pov being imposed upon the discussion. Even large numbers of women do it. Lots (e.g. "Men just don't see mess" "If you're home with the kids it really is your job to do the housework" etc).

I appreciate the issue with men imposing on a face-to-face discussion, eg tending to interrupt women more, various signals that may make it harder for women to feel able to speak in a meeting or even one-to-one. I'm less clear that it is possible for men to impose in an online discussion. Men have no way of interrupting another poster, or making their posts more prominent, or stopping other posters to express themselves as freely as they wish. You can always skip over a man's contribution. How is the male POV imposed?

Also, have I understood correctly that you are saying many women parrot or echo male POV rather than genuinely be able to express a female POV? Is it really the case that it is men who believe "men don't see mess" and that women have bought this line uncritically?

Men have no way of interrupting another poster, or making their posts more prominent

Which is why they use the old "man here / as a man" thing as they're conditioned to recognise that men's opinions are sadly given more weight in this society, deliberately or not.

It's just your opinion. Not the opinion of the mens.

I don't think anyone sees mess until we're taught to. It's entirely possible that we as a society only teach girls.

The kind of man who announces himself as a man is often the kind of poster who will get very annoyed if his post isn't explicitly replied to immediately. Most people recognise that some posts are just silently acknowledged or skimmed especially in busy threads, but not the Announcer. "Ha ha you're ignoring me because I said I'm a man ... you're all sexist" etc.

Anyone is entitled to join in. What's infuriating is when a person - can be a man, can be a woman - merails a thread in that way. It's like a toddler yanking on your trouser leg when you're talking.

MrsH - you've side-stepped my question. I'm not querying whether or not "men don't see mess" is a valid statement, I'm querying the claim that it's a statement that comes from men and women have somehow fallen "victim" to that POV.

As you have argued for why perhaps men don't see mess, does that mean you (as claimed by KickAss) are regurgitating the male POV on mess?

We live in a patriarchal society where the dominant ideology is patriarchal. Not ALL patriarchal views benefit men. They produce stereotypes and gendered expectations which can be limiting to men as well as limiting the agency of women.

However, within a patriarchal society the news, media, politics, family structure etc will predominantly follow that ideology.

So - we get the male pov from TV, news, radio, family time, school etc etc etc. It just goes on and on and it is almost inescapable. the ONLY potential for NOT hearing the patriarchal line is by creating a 'safe space' which is ring-fenced and attempts to block out patriarchy. One way of doing this is for female-only spaces. Yet, as women who have grown up within patriarchy we are unable to truly separate out our minds from that ideology. So, even a female only space will have elements of patriarchy in it.

Given that having a truly non-patriarchal discussion is close to impossible, any male who comes into that space, no matter how respectfully, is once again imposing the dominant ideology and subverting the attempt at having a non-patriarchal discussion. It isn't about interrupting, or announcing oneself. It's about an attempt to genuinely think beyond our known and experienced lives to create - even if only temporarily within our minds - a space that has NO patriarchal influence at all.

It's about freedom of thought. The very presence of a male can limit that.

Judith Butler had a lot to say about how fiction can be used as a place for thought experiment to create a non-patriarchal fictional space. From that situation, it could then be possible to find ways out of a patriarchal society and build greater equity. That's why saying 'as a man' is more than a bit pants.

On a thread about 'what are you having for dinner' it doesn't really matter who is speaking. On a thread about why men being present is a problem, then men being present is a problem.

VoD

In similar vein I saw a post a few months back where a women stated in a fairly authoritive tone that 'it's impossible for a man to pee while he has an erection' (Christ knows how the thread arrived at that juncture), no doubt the bloke who waded in to point out how utterly factually wrong that statement is was 'mansplaining' !

On a thread about why men being present is a problem, then men being present is a problem.

TBF - this thread is not "about why men being present is a problem" but it's a thread asking men to stop announcing 'as a man'.

Followed by

"It just makes you look like a pompous mansplaining tosser"

Which it does.

Thats why I identify as one in my name

But are you a Dad? Anyone could have that as a name.

Can you prove you are a Dad? Without stereotyping of course

This is the reason why my DP won't join MN. He loves reading threads with me but is too scared to add his opinion as he doesn't want to piss anyone off. It is a shame really, as he is a dentist specialising in dental-phobic patients and I've seen lots of "any dentists here?" type threads that he would be great on.

It works both ways though. We sadly don't have any DC yet and in the past I have seen threads where an OP has asked why non-parents should be on MN at all

I don't say it outright but I'm sure the username gives it away

'Speaking as a man' is redundant and unnecessary except when women explain (womansplain?!) the reason men think or do certain things, as they often do here.....

Yeah, but women just know these things.....

I love that verb "merail".

Womansplaining is a thing, sadly

DadDadDad you have made two assumptions:

1. That I concur with the opinion "men don't see mess" because I've lived with FIL who is the king of tidy.

1. That men create the fallacies upon which the patriarchy is based.

That the patriarchy benefits men as a class over women as a class is a given. That it benefits all men and no women is demonstrably untrue.

Average you must be the first poster to have put the C word in your username already. I am impressed.

Want to go halves on a pack of mince pies?

Anyway, this is circular.

Most MNers are quite happy to count men amongst our number. That isn't in question.

Many uses of the phrase "As a man" on MN are about as relevant as "As a Sagittarius": at best mildly irritating and at worst attention-seeking and superior.

I visit www.notalwaysright.com and its sister sites regularly. There's a recent entry specifying that a customer is female before recounting her description of her labour and delivery. I'd say it didn't need that note!

I love it when men open a post with "speaking as a man", expecting all us mums to sit up and really pay attention.

Do you have such a chip on your shoulder that you think that? This place is full of women, feminists, mothers making sweeping generalisations about what women's lives are like(or supposed to be like) coupled with equally sweeping generalisations about what men are like /do/think (recent example in FWR making sweeping generalisations about male tradesmen - basically they are rubbish and patronising and overcharge).

I don't see it any more than someone making clear where they are coming from. I'll no more pay attention/agree/ dusagree/ignore/ roll my eyes at it than any other poster.

I haven't read the whole thread but I agree with Worra's posts.