To think it's not hard to adhere to uniform rules

[Puzzledconfusedandbewildered]

Yet again in the fail a school has had protests from parents (and police presence) due to 50 students being turned away on day 1 for breaching the uniform rules

Aibu to think the rules are the rules and if you want your child to attend that school you adhere to them?

Wrt charter schools in NYC, an interesting study on effects of charter schools as well as evaluation methods used.

'The following policies are associated with a charter school's having better effects on achievement. We emphasize that these are merely associations and do not necessarily indicate that these policies cause achievement to improve.
• a long school year;
• a greater number of minutes devoted to English during each school day;
• a small rewards/small penalties disciplinary policy;
• teacher pay based somewhat on performance or
duties, as opposed to a traditional pay scale
based strictly on seniority and credentials;
• a mission statement that emphasizes academic performance, as opposed to other goals.'

No mention of uniforms. Are uniforms or other elements of school wallpaper so thoroughly scrutinised in the UK?

They're not obsessed with discipline either. (How about those uniforms though...)

The KIPP approach - one among many - is basically doing for children what most MC parents do unconsciously (i.e. the 'no excuses' /resilience training that a lot of children receive at home). KIPP school are not the only ones with a 'no excuses' approach. This approach doesn't mean someone stands at the school door sending children home for uniform infractions, shouting 'No excuses!' at their backs.

harris.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/Rivkin.paper_.pdf

• all charter schools are not the same by any means
• see p.18/19 for thoughts on whether compliant students are more likely to apply to schools with 'no excuses' policies or uniforms...

... if it is the case that self selection of students more likely to succeed in a uniformed environment contributes to student success in a uniformed environment, then perhaps it might also be the case that students forced to learn in a uniformed environment might fare badly.

I don't know if there are studies on the effect of forcing students to wear uniform that they hate and being subject to the input of jobsworths on their appearance. Are uniform schools where 75% of students attain A*-C grades being complacent?

How middle class Americans with middle class expectations view compliance in children. The rules are rules idea that is criticised in this article is the approach some posters here are in favour of.

I think it's very interesting to see what different societies value.

Thank God I am not the sort of person who thinks that sending a child home from school for a minuscule infraction of a draconian uniform policy makes sense.Its depressing to know that there are people who want to teach their children to blindly follow rules 'because'

The people who follow these rules understand the reason for them and agree with them.
They are not blindly following. Maybe they see the benefit of the rule?
Why assume they are blindly following?

I don't think it's blindly teaching your children to follow rules. Adults can weigh up the consequences when they choose to break a rule children don't if they did why have rules in school

the vast majority of children managed to wear the correct uniform a few didn't (some may have genuine reasons) and protest how by contacting the school council no that too much effort lets just kick up a fuss in the playground

Same thing every year and same parents every year and what are they teaching their children rules are there to be broken when it suits

You couldn't turn up to a professional job in a pair of trainers

On the contrary, many, many professional firms allow this, Even the stuffiest solicitors' or accountants' firms tend to have dress down Fridays when anything goes, and apparently productivity and motivation goes up a treat.

Yes. Also, shit.

gotaget why assume they aren't

Why indeed? We should have our own opinions and not assume anything.
We would have to ask each individual why they follow a particular rule.

MrsDeVere well exactly.

MrsDeVere oops massive cross posts!

My "Well exactly" was to this:

I wonder what would happen if everyone just did as they were told without questioning why.
What a shame we have no examples in history to look back on.

it does annoy me that staff spend so much time on this
How much time? Would they have to if people took notice?

Come off it. Children have been breaking school uniform rules since school uniform was invented, they always will. The way to stop wasting time on it is not to have school uniform rules and save your time and energy for rules that are actually relevant to teaching and learning.

As for US charter schools some have a sort of uniform. There is a charter school in our district that has a uniform, but it is nothing like the uniform requirement in many UK schools. Trousers and skirts have to be navy blue or tan (denim is ok), shirts are either red, white, or light blue with or without logo, can be long or short sleeve. Sweat shirt either red or navy blue. Any shoes as long as they have a back (so no flip flops but trainers and sandals with a back are fine.) It's really more of a restrictive dress code than a uniform, especially with the possible color combinations, so not everyone looks the same.

We see it at local schools

Facebook is very informative at times

The schools that make the biggest issue of uniform are academies, and they regularly claim that they do it in order to improve results. Interestingly, it's reported today that independent research shows that academisation has no long term effect on GCSE results - within four years they are the same as they were before the school became an academy. So that's an awful lot of fuss and expense that achieves precisely nothing.

Article about strict uniform and discipline in US - this is the kind of thing I am talking about, and what I think some UK schools are trying to copy.

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/12/how-strict-is-too-strict/382228/

Interestingly (or not, I guess) re USSR, Russian schools are non uniform and have been for around twenty years. Even a country with Putin in charge doesn't have school uniform.
Yup. Because when USSR fell apart, school uniforms were good riddance. Kids can wear normal everyday clothes. Girls can wear JEANS!

Myself i'm from Lithuania. We don't have Putin over us. We are EU and NATO.
Funny enough, Lithuanian schools started re-introducing uniforms at extortionate prices. Parents stay silent well, a cherry colored blazer looks nice we'll pay so we don't look 'piss poor'

Effic Are you seriously suggesting that there isn't farming in the Green Belt?

Civil rights complaints were filed against some of those charter schools in New Orleans. I really don't think they are a model to emulate.

newamericamedia.org/2014/04/civil-rights-complaints-filed-against-three-new-orleans-schools.php

'Scholar talk' is required in order to make African American children (and to some extent Hispanic children) use standard English. African American or Hispanic children comprise the majority of charter school students in the US. It has been theorised that lack of standard English holds African American children back.

As noted in that article - the stakes for students who fail to follow rules on matters that most schools in the US don't bother with are really serious.

Also, the parents clamouring for harsh discipline tend to come from 'spare the rod and spoil the child' cultures. This approach tends to be very different from the child centered middle class approach that very much blends with the 'encouragement of the good' approach in most schools.

If children are being smacked at home and yelled at for transgressions, school is going to be a culture shock. There are many, many US children who are trained at home to respond to a threat of a smack, who are used only to negative reinforcement. Teachers don't do this - their approach is positive reinforcement, so children can end up very confused. Coupled with financial starvation of public schools, you end up with a disaster.

I think UK schools are copying Eton, et al. The academy idea is very American though. Very Maggie T.

Nat uniforms (and referenda, interestingly) are banned in Germany, I believe - I guess Germany has good reason not to want to see its youth in uniforms.

And many parents in the US are quite happy to have that "spare the rod" approach followed in schools. Nineteen states allow corporal punishment in schools, including my state. Happily, my school district does not allow it, however.

I think that forcing pupils to wear blazers in boiling hot weather is really a form of corporal punishment, with the distinguishable feature being that they haven't done anything wrong to merit being punished.

I don't think the uniform rules sound odd enough to be copying Eton - that would be more about comedy hats and strange societies. Many private schools have scruffy uniform/no uniform.

Certainly they would look down on schools that make sixth form pupils wear 'office wear' to school because

1. You aren't going to an office, you are going to Oxford and

2. It's your confidence and privilege that will get you to Oxford, not your shoes.

However, there were loads of newspaper articles about kipp schools a few years ago and I think Gove was a fan. Whether or not the UK interpretation of a kipp school is anything like a kipp school is another manner. There have also been quite a few films about military academies.

We seem to be reconsidering grammar schools based on hazy 1950's nostalgia, so I don't think school policies are necessarily based on research.

I got a bit sicken by the initial posts on this thread, with their rules is rules policy.

So I skipped a fair bit and found MrsDeVere's post. Totally agree. I think if you want children to obey rules it is best to set sensible rules. Here in Mexico the school uniform is really cheap and practical.

When I was a child in Belfast the bloody school uniform was massively expensive and I ended up looking really scruffy because my mother couldn't afford to buy several sets. So it did nothing to eliminate social difference, in fact it accentuated it.

I also think that considering there can be serious discipline problems with some children, when you make such a big fuss about the colour of a child's socks, how do they know when they are in serious trouble?