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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to not support the junior doctors?

155 replies

MenMust · 05/09/2016 20:45

just that really. it seems to be about them wanting more pay rather than saving the NHS. am I wrong? feel free to educate me (rather than attacking me!) ....

OP posts:
YelloDraw · 06/09/2016 07:46

Interesting chart HicDraconis

YoungGirlGrowingOld · 06/09/2016 07:55

HeCan't cites the usual lefty nonsense about tax avoidance. Never mind the fact that most senior doctors set up private companies for their private practice patients (including my husband admittedly). What's good for the goose is good for the gander isnt it?

700 million out of the diminishing NHS budget to prop up JD's egos is not money well spent in my opinion. My DH clinic does not even have enough chairs for chemo patients FFS.

HeCantBeSerious · 06/09/2016 08:03

Hey, I have a ltd company too. My avoiding NI isn't really in the same league as Starbucks and Amazon paying 1 or 2% through govt deals. Hmm

Togaparties · 06/09/2016 08:08

YANBU. They need to suck it the fuck up. Anyone striking should be sacked on the spot.

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 06/09/2016 08:10

What is not being reported is the fact that a good proportion of junior doctors are not BMA members

Therefore, only about 30% of junior doctors actually took part in the vote

JDs have never been balloted on further strikes - 5 days or not or the contract with the new Saturday pay offer (and that is s concern regarding the legality of the strikes). And let's be clear, during the ACAS talks that reached that deal, that was the key issue. Patient safety didn't come in to it.

I've posted on the other thread and says that the general chatter I've heard amongst the medics in our family was that one was not going to strike - he was happy with the new contract, as are a lot if JDs. One was going to strike, but reluctantly and had contacted the BMA to register concerns

A third is a consultant and didn't agree with the strikes due to patient safety concerns but very honestly admitted that, as a consultant, he has a horse in the race as consultant contracts are due to be renegotiated and it would suit him (and other consultants) for the government to be given a bloody nose before that starts

My automatic reaction at the start of this was to think oooh, yes. Nice medics. Must support unilaterally. But then I became slightly confused by the fact that when I actually spoke to the doctors I knew, it was clear there was not unilateral support for the strikes etc and I decided to look at the actual figures and documentation

There is a disconnect between what a lot of doctors seem to believe they are striking for and what the BMA are actually saying during the negotiations. In addition, further issues are being piggy backed onto these disputes. They may be very legitimate concerns, but you can't just call strikes on issues that members haven't been properly balloted on - that's part of the reason the vegetal public gets so pissed off with tube drivers!

Gobbolinothewitchscat · 06/09/2016 08:14

Sorry - got figures muddied (whilst doing breakfast!). It was around 70% of JDs who voted and it works out at less that 50% of the total number who rejected the contract.

My point is that there is a large silent majority

YoungGirlGrowingOld · 06/09/2016 08:20

Well that makes you a hypocrite, Hecan't. Why should anyone pay more tax than they should? How many jobs do Amazon and Starbucks provide? How much VAT does the government receive on their products? More than your limited company (or my DH's for that matter). So who is the tax avoiding parasite again?

Pardonwhat · 06/09/2016 08:46

Togaparties - so you believe that people should always put up with whatever conditions for fear of being sacked? What a ridiculous comment Hmm. And where do you suggest we're going to find all these doctors to replace the ones you've just sacked? Silly silly silly Grin

HeCantBeSerious · 06/09/2016 08:47

Not really. We apply the rules as they stand. We aren't negotiating our contribution down with HMRC outside of the rules.

Most of the employees of SB, Amazon etc don't earn enough to pay tax (students etc). And if they weren't here people would buy elsewhere and the govt would still get the vat.

Let's hope the junior doctors get their way and your DH's terms don't start getting eroded (or he runs off with a nurse or secretary, as many do). You might just need your pension after all. ;)

YoungGirlGrowingOld · 06/09/2016 09:29

Oh how delightful you sound. Don't worry, in my profession (law), I am extremely well-placed to take him to the cleaners if he does fuck off with a nurse or secretary. Including for his pension. Luckily he has more brains than that. And he would need an iron stomach judging by the girth of most of the female employees at his hospital. Wink

Starbucks and their ilk pay the best tax advisors in order to operate within the law - it's a game with an advisory industry constructed around it. HMRC wouldn't bother to negotiate unless it had either something to gain or plenty to lose (or both).

LordRothermereBlackshirtCunt · 06/09/2016 09:42

How many jobs do Amazon and Starbucks provide?
I see little value in the sort of low paid jobs these companies provide since taxpayers need to subsidise their employees through tax credits. Amazon are opening a depot in my town and there is little enthusiasm for it - unemployment here is very low (less than 1%) and what is needed here are more jobs that aren't minimum wage.

Crapple3030 · 06/09/2016 10:03

Good old Mumsnet, turning a serious issue into ad hominem argument. Who cares if anyone's husband runs off with a fat co worker?

gonetoseeamanaboutadog · 06/09/2016 10:17

Quite apart from the validity of the arguments, not enough junior doctors want to continue this fight for an unprecedented, controversial strike to be morally justifiable without another ballot. If the overwhelming majority of junior doctors and senior doctors (who junior doctors should be listening to) were in favour of a series of five day strikes, there would be reason for the public to seriously consider backing it. But the inconvenient truth is that the majority of doctors (and in all likelihood junior doctors) are not behind this.

Niloufes · 06/09/2016 11:44

It is very much about money. The gov want to make them work on the weekend for normal pay and in time that was traditionally out of hours where they are currently getting paid more, the Doctors would like to keep their extra pay for the weekends and other traditionally out of hours work. So the Doctors are trying to protect their pay packets but at the same time they are using this to highlight that 1) they have been underpaid for some time hence why many regularly work extra out of hours shifts, 2) the NHS currently doesn't work because it is underfunded and 3) the NHS will still not work under the new contract because it is underfunded. I support the Doctors but get a little annoyed that they often side step the questions about protecting their current pay over how they are only striking for a better NHS when it is clearly firstly about their pay.

EtTuTuttiFrutti · 06/09/2016 11:50

"And he would need an iron stomach judging by the girth of most of the female employees at his hospital. wink "
Am I seeing things or did you really type that YoungGirl ?????
WTF

JacquesHammer · 06/09/2016 11:56

Actually - no-one is in any way unreasonable not to support strike action.

We live in a place that gives people a democratic right to strike - those that choose not to or don't support the strikes have equally as much right

mycatwantstokillme1 · 06/09/2016 11:57

EtTuTuttiFrutti I thought the same. Beginning to feel sorry for hr husband!

EtTuTuttiFrutti · 06/09/2016 12:05

As well as being a real charmer YoungGirl, you seem to have little understanding of the VAT regime.
VAT is a zero tax (over-simplified analysis) for registered businesses. Amazon, Starbucks etc. do not pay VAT, they merely act as VAT collectors.

The consumer pays the VAT. You, Me, Jo Bloggs.

I too would like the tax breaks and deals that these companies obtain from the Tories; unfortunately, they squeeze my tax pips until they squeek to maintain inflated profits for the fat cats.

Laiste · 06/09/2016 12:26

YoungGirl - he would need an iron stomach judging by the girth of most of the female employees at his hospital*

Fascinating thread.

Shock @ the above though. What a thing to say and what a bizarre thought process. 'I'm fine anyway because his co-workers are fat'.

Headofthehive55 · 06/09/2016 12:37

Why don't the drs go on agenda for change contracts and salary scales?

OldFarticus · 06/09/2016 12:59

I don't support them and I don't know anyone who does. I think this is one of those issues where MN is not representative of RL.

I am pleased they have called off the first strike and expect further tactical retreats.

EtTuTuttiFrutti · 06/09/2016 13:31

My daily contacts are all drawn from a business environment. I haven't met one yet who isn't in support of the Junior Doctors. Given my current disease and my DD's intention to study medicine it's a "hot" topic.
I don't think in this case that MN is out of step with public opinion.

tigerdick · 06/09/2016 13:34

I don't know anyone who doesn't support them, including all the die-hard Tories I work with.

But hey, enjoy your life-saving medical treatment performed by an exhausted, overworked doctor who's been treated so badly they don't give a shit anymore!

OldFarticus · 06/09/2016 13:50

Most of the doctors I have been treated by on the NHS already don't give a shit, unfortunately. I don't think having their orifices stuffed with yet more gold is going to change that. Nor do I think they deserve it.

Currently 26 weeks pregnant - baby diagnosed with life-threatening condition at 20W scan and there are no MW appointments available because they are "too busy" and the consultant doesn't give a crap. Zero support. The NHS is not fit for purpose in my experience. If Hunt wants to privatise it (and I not convinced he does) then it's hard to believe it could be any worse than the appalling shitshow I am experiencing now.

ginpig · 06/09/2016 13:52

YoungGirl think you have misunderstood the pay negotiations going on.

The new contract is getting Junior doctors to work elective services over 7 dyas instead of 5, using the same number of days. They are asking to be remunerated appropriately for this extra work, they are not demanding a pay increase. So the £700 million quoted is representative of the uplift that the NHS budget would need to take it form a 5 to a 7 day elective service and that's jsut for junior doctor staffing, not even touching on all the ancillary staff that would be required to provide an effective service. Good old Jeremy Hunt himself has said that the new 7 day elective service would be 'cost neutral' to the NHS, and as there are more hours to work to cover this, the staff must be being paid compartively less for the work they are doing.

I repeat again, JD's are NOT asking for money- they are asking to be paid at the current level for the extra work they are being expected to do as part of a 7 day elective service. Which incidentally will fall flat on its face as the majoirty of Joe Public will not attend evening and weekend appointments.