to not support the junior doctors?

[MenMust]

just that really. it seems to be about them wanting more pay rather than saving the NHS. am I wrong? feel free to educate me (rather than attacking me!) ....

Musicaltheatremum Brainwashed much? Where in the new contract does it say that?

Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me for only 1 years worth of training

Not sweet enough for a relative that wanted to do it. They wouldn't be able to afford their mortgage etc on the training salary so had to stay where they were.

Yes I know. I think I need to hide this thread. That, or create a FAQ and direct people back to that, but then many don't rtft before posting.

Noodledoodledoo If that is a problem then them it has nothing to do with the new contract, its to do with the CURRENT contract. Every grievance a doctor has (and I am saying they could be legitimate) is being used to denigrate this new contract. Yet no one ever points to what specific line in the contract is wrong verses the current one.

Thanks for the flowchart South I like that.
Juniors are voting with their feet. We are struggling to recruit doctors to provide a safe service before the strikes / contract imposition see many more leaving. There's only so much you can push people and this contract is the final straw for many.
Interesting about air traffic / tube drivers salaries. Trainee air traffic controller are paid £18k for one year, medical students pay £9k tuition per year for 5 years...

Tube drivers ONLY get the pay they do because they are able to BLACKMAIL the country to the tune of BILLIONS of pounds. They dont deserve half the pay they get.

YABU, I am aghast that this government have brought this dispute to this stage. Here we have workers who have slogged their guts out since they were teenagers to work at the frontline of healthcare and this is the way they are being treated - the price for this poor treatment will be paid for many years to come. I am not a junior doctor and don't know any but I have worked in Human Resources for 25 years and this is a shocking example of poor treatment of employees. We are still living through the aftershocks of the Miners' Dispute.

I support the Junior doctors and everyone else's right to strike. Teachers, train drivers, all of them. Far to often it seems to be a race to the bottom with people crying out things like "Well I don't get paid that much and I don't strike!". The private sector loses out if the public sector doesn't stand up for it self as private often looks to public to level their wages. Support every person who is standing up for themselves and their profession. You will likely gain from it yourself at some point.

Of course it's about money and politics they can try and wrap it any way they want. nothing to do with care and safety.

To compare well off doctors to miners would be quite funny if it wasn't so deluded.

????mathsmum314 I'm referring to poorly handled industrial relations and long term consequences of these not specific jobs.

I fully support the junior doctors, and fully loathe Jeremy Cunt and the rest of the bastard tories for what they're doing to our NHS.

tava63, which industrial relations have been mishandled by the government? The government negotiated until they got a contract the BMA agreed with!

It has been proved "leaders of the junior doctors' dispute "drew out" the contract battle with the Government and said pay - not safety - was at the heart of the row".

The BMA chair, decided to draw the dispute "right out", supported by "punctuated (industrial action) for a prolonged period" to tie the Department of Health up "in knots for the next 16-18 months".

The BMA have said that weekend pay was "the only real red line" that "99% of juniors told us they were upset about".

The BMA chair said that we should only take part in a "rubbish" round of mediation talks “to play the political game of always looking reasonable".

• Speaks for itself...

I don't know if anyone else saw Michael Mosley talking about the situation recently. He is a doctor himself and his son is a junior doctor. He explained that most of his age group are looking to which point they can take early retirement and his son's age group are looking at working in other countries where they are paid and appreciated more. Those two things are likely to lead to an appalling knowledge deficit for the NHS in the very near future

All those talking about it being about pay & junior doctors being on high salaries anyway - I came across this graph which is highly relevant.

I have no issue with them striking over terms and conditions. I don't expect anyone to do any job; it is a choice. If someone makes unreasonable changes to a contract and negotiation doesn't work, they have the right to withdraw their labour as a final resort. The fact that we need them is our problem, not theirs. We should support them provided we think their priorities are reasonable, and I do.

I don't support them either OP so YANBU. DH is a consultant and is appalled by the latest round of strikes (although many senior doctors are secretly relieved it's being dragged out because their contract is next). It would cost GBP 700 million to accede to the latest pay demands of the JD's according to a Times article this weekend. How is sucking that out of the (vanishing) NHS budget going to improve patient care?

The JD's seem to want US salaries in a universal public system. Plus an eye wateringly good pension. (DH's is so good I don't even bother with my crappy private sector pension anymore - we can both live comfortably on his). They are deluded and will not succeed.

YoungGirl: As far as I am concerned, if I, my DH, my mum, dad, my future kids, my siblings, my friends, turn up at A&E and need someone to insert their body parts into us to check for cancer or perform emergency CPR, these are the guys doing that. I am happy for them to keep their pensions and I don't expect them to suffer financially because the Government wants to shrink the NHS. If more investment is needed, I am happy to pay more tax.

Yes YABU.

We all need to listen very hard to the junior doctors imo they are selflessly and desperately sounding a warning siren against what the Conservatives are trying to do to the NHS.

As pps have said they want to break it so there is no choice but to march ahead with privatisation.

I knew junior doctors weren't on huge salaries but only 23k as a starting salary is absurd. It's a huge amount of pressure and responsibility for so little. I make more than that as a travel agent, and I certainly don't work double shifts and nights.

I'd really like to see some decent media reporting of this because the doctors are going to end up being shafted without public support, and most of the public at least people I know) perceive this as being about greed.

I support the junior doctors. I support the NHS. Wait until it's been totally dismantled and then watch people realise what they had and took for granted.

You are lazy OP, not finding out the facts. It's like when teachers strike and get a chorus of "look at their holidays/they only work 9-3" from those who can't be bothered to find out the facts either.

Irony overload, YoungGirl.

And besides, if Govt collected the £billions of corporation tax they let large corporations off each year they'd have more money to throw at everyone working in the NHS. (Except perhaps fatcat consultants. )

hecantbeserious You do know what a consultant is in NHS terms don't you? It generally denotes a highly paid senior medical doctor, not a highly paid occasional advisor as found in other sectors.

Yes, junior doctors don't start out on a massive salary, even if it is higher than most graduates without the need for soul destroying unpaid internships, but they sure as hell don't stay on that low salary for all that long.

Legally you can only strike over terms and conditions in your contract.

You are not allowed to strike over the continued destruction of the nhs. You can be angry about it. You can show how these changes to your terms and conditions are just another way to further break the nhs.

But strike law is clear. They can only strike over pay and conditions in the contract. They cannot strike over nhs funding in general

Yes I do, Crapple. I know several, actually. All of whom support the junior doctors.

(I meant fatcat because one of the most highly paid people in the NHS isn't supporting the scaffolding of the organisation because they're alright now. She even admitted that he knows they're providing defence against his contract being changed in this way! He's pulling the ladder up, basically!)