to resent accusations of elitism or "looking down" on people in the face of aggressive anti-intellectualism?

[grimupnorthLondon]

I find myself a bit in despair after yesterday's thread on people who "don't watch the news" where a load of posters turned up aggressively declaring that it is their right to focus on their own families and that anyone who tells them otherwise is a snob. I think the UK is now at a stage where a lack of outward-looking curiosity about the world has turned us into a nation of selfish individuals. More dangerously, it has allowed us to drift blindly into the clutches of ruthless multi-nationals and an aggressively right wing government.

Choosing to actively remain ignorant of "depressing news" means many people are barely noticing the deliberate dismantling of the welfare state and the NHS. I fear that when many people who are currently drifting comfortably along hit a life crisis and find that they suddenly need legal aid/housing/mental health care they will be in for a rude awakening.

The education on offer in state schools these days is generally better than it has ever been, but so many parents seem to be colluding with their offspring to treat it with disdain or (at best) something you need in order to get a certificate. Why not support teachers' efforts, read fiction and non-fiction books yourself, have books in your house, use the libraries we still have, surf the net with your kids to teach them about source reliability and bias, volunteer for something you care about, watch films and documentaries and discuss them. Do something with content that isn't just about your daily consumerist concerns!

This isn't about time and money. Lots of these things are free and there are very few people who couldn't replace one reality show a week with something else or retune to Radio 4 on their commute or read a book for half an hour instead of surfing.

It's not just a matter of "pub quiz" trivia or being a grammar pedant either. The more you know, the more connections you will make about cause and effect in the workings of the world and the better able we will all be to make sensible decisions as a nation. You are not just a family member, you are also a citizen!

Calling people out on this is not elitist.

So Mango, because I read books and didn't just stay in the cleaning job I did for my last three years at school and all the way through university, you have decided that my concern for anyone unlike me is fake and that I look down on those people.

That's a fairly startling leap of logic.

Would it be better if we were only looked down on by people who were born posh in the first place? Anyone who wants things to change must be a show off who is patronising us - let's mock them.

Lots of people in this thread have made very logical points, albeit in some cases using fairly specialist academic language. Why should that make you so angry and why do you assume that it is virtue signalling?

Justgivemeamo the point on lobbyists is economically illiterate - we now live in a world of global capital and the EU as a trading block that big companies cannot ignore. It has the power to impose regulation and fair taxes on those companies. Of course they lobby for reduction of these but they cannot afford to pull out of the EU altogether and that is why workers in the EU benefit from the best safety at work and environmental regulations on the planet (yeah yeah 'elf and safety I know, but just look at the poisoned water scandal in Michigan to see how much worse it could be, and the US is by no means the worst place to work).

As a smaller market outside the EU, the UK will not have the buying power to impose such restrictions - in fact to attract companies to invest here we will almost certainly have to offer tax breaks, subsidies and 'special deals'. And a Tory government will be more than happy to do that. It's already beginning.

Also justgiveme, if people thought the Brexit vote was a blow against big business and conglomerates they were sadly mistaken. Once we are outside the EU we will be able to give generous tax breaks to big businesses and free them from the obligations to give their workers' decent rights that are required under EU law. The government is already making overtures to Apple after the Irish tax case.

For someone complaining about being "looked down on" your kind of displaying an amazing example yourself, maybe what you deem as people displaying "anti-illectual" is in fact someone having a different opinion, it's obvious that your very left leaning (nothing wrong with that what so ever) but you do seem to have a trait of jumping on things and telling people why they are wrong (labour/Tory, brexit eg), that's not necessary a sign of intelligence more one of a partisan mindset

You made a point and posted a link. I responded to it. How is that looking down on you or anyone else? Do you have a rebuttal to the facts I have given you or are you just going to continue to abuse me personally?

YADNBU. Will read thread in full when have time....

Read the first and last page ... Will read the middle three pages on a minute.

OP YANBU

I had a similar conversation with my dp last night. There are hardly any mentally stimulating tv shows. Big Brother and ITVbe style tripe is shown daily, but I struggle to find shows that teach me anything.

Last night the best show I could find was about 3 celebs trecking across Mexico. The background scenery was beautiful and the climbers met fascinating people - but it was a one hour show! No follow up.

We often watch the news channels as there is nothing else to watch - and we watch a maximum of an hour a day.

You made a point and posted a link. I responded to it. How is that looking down on you or anyone else? Do you have a rebuttal to the facts I have given you or are you just going to continue to abuse me personally?

Your confusing me with another poster, I was highlighting how you have been from your OP onwards and through the the thread, so....

That's an interesting point about tv shows Jaimx - I think the expansion of tv channels has lead to the BBC to try to compete with commercial channels a lot more and has lead to trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

I'm sure that has a knock on effect about how people view academic things. If a history programme was on BBC1 then it's probably quite natural to some to sit and watch and enjoy it. The same programme on BBC4 becomes elitist and hoity toity.

Grim, I didn't make any assumptions about you personally.
I did stress 'wider you' at the start of my post, and I would presume that for every generalisation there are always exceptions (a lot of 'concern' is faux from some better educated, higher socioeconomic groups of people, but not everyone).

Also, I'm not in the least bit angry - why would I be?
I am one of those from working class upbringing who worked myriad shit jobs from the age of 14 and bettered myself over the years - I am one of those who loves to learn for learning's sake.

One of my strengths though, is not to take things personally as an immediate reaction - I tend to absorb all opinions, viewpoints and facts and question constantly.
From your reaction to my post, where you assumed I was personally insulting you, I would wonder if the people you complain of for being 'anti intellectual' and aiming it at you was perhaps misinterpreted on your part.

that's not necessary a sign of intelligence more one of a partisan mindset

^^ agree smacks of brainwashing more than anything else really.

To be honest...this thread just smacks of "I'm just too intellectual for most, why isn't everyone like me." When in my experience, that is the norm. This is not the country of dullards being implied to self-aggrandise, but a country of a whole gamut of people from different backgrounds, with different levels of feeling about different subjects. I know a wide range of people...being public school educated and working in a food bank, but I do not know anyone as uncaring and willfully ignorant as is being portrayed here.

Some may not be as left leaning as I am, but that does not mean that they are wrong, or misled, or interpreting information incorrectly, or not bothering to research...they just see things differently. That does not make me inherently right, or more intellectual.

One marker of true intelligence for me is the ability to communicate with all sorts...if you turn people off to the point they are telling you outright that they're not interested then you're doing something wrong!

This thread is very paternalistic tbh, which isn't a great approach.

and that is why workers in the EU benefit from the best safety at work and environmental regulations on the planet (yeah yeah 'elf and safety I know, but just look at the poisoned water scandal in Michigan to see how much worse it could be, and the US is by no means the worst place to work

Op down here where I live in among these low brow people you speak of....people doing odd jobs, working under the radar, ie hundreds of thousands if not millions of people, there is no bloody health and safety.

You sound as if you come from a world, where everything is done in a certain way, ie you rent a house out, the whole thing and you sign agreements. You interview for a job and you sign a contract.

YOu seem un aware of the world where people live 3/4/5/ and more to a room in shitty lodgings, cash in hand world where there is an enormous shadowy transient movement of people...which grew when millions of eastern europeans came to work here.

so I struggle to see how this in any way reflects your statement.

The EU friend of Big Business and the movement of people like worthless chattels across it. .

As for the lobbying, again you seem to have your head in the sand. ( and it was a guardian article ).

To be honest...this thread just smacks of "I'm just too intellectual for most, why isn't everyone like me

Well I have always been very suspicious of people who present themselves in a certain way. The truly knowledgeable and intelligent people I have met in the wider sense ie not specialists in one area are humble and would never see themselves as razor bright - ie they retain the capacity to challenge their own ideas, see all sides of an argument and keep taking on knowledge.

That's an interesting point about tv shows Jaimx - I think the expansion of tv channels has lead to the BBC to try to compete with commercial channels a lot more and has lead to trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator

There's also the converse of that, that with the expansion of commercial channels they have lost a captive audience and people are having different viewpoints,(iysim), I don't think it's appealing to the lowest common denominator per say, as that has always been the case, with the advent of rolling news, Internet and social media, people are actively seeking news that confirms there own biases and retreating into echo chambers.

Yy Lurker - I read a really interesting article about how social media is increasing the echo chamber effect through algorithms and how people are becoming more tribal in their politics as a result. I am a floating voter that tends to be more left leaning but I definitely see a lot of "all Tories are evil" and "Labour voters are all economically incontinent spongers" when really I'd say 90% of voters have a whole lot of shared common ground, if slightly different opinions about the best way to go about a thing.

I haven't read the whole thread: guilty as charged..

Do you not think that not getting overly involved in politics was a learned behaviour from our forebears who had looked across the channel and saw bloody revolution and had had brushes with communists and fascists on their own streets in living memory? My family were informed but were very wary of extremism in religion or politics and avoiding these issues in wider family or in public was encouraged.

Certainly the British have not tended to embrace extremism Bakewell but we should or forget the hard won workers' rights that were won through collective responses to unfairness, like the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the development of trade unionism. And on the right, the widespread jingoistic engagement around the time of the Boer war and throughout the Edwardian era. Then there was Jarrow and the General Strike in the 20s and the labour landslide in 45 leading to the creation of the Welfare State. We have not always been an apathetic nation. I actually think it is active engagement in politics that has historically forced the ruling powers to compromise, from Magna Carta through to votes for women, resulting in fewer revolutionary crises such as befell France and Russia.

I do think the issue with politics though is that politicians of all stripes have shown themselves so blatantly untrustworthy.

Labour: Iraq war and pfi
Conservatives: no top down reorganisation of the NHS (but a 'bottom up' introduction of markets is just dandy.
Lib dems: tuition fees.

Our politicians have made it very clear that they cannot keep their election promises so actually the bastards will do whatever they want, and people just have to go along with it unless there are real riots (poll tax) and often don't work (miners strikes) or the Iraq war March.

When the govt ignore direct action by millions of people, what is the point.

I read the news etc, but a lot of it does feel like watching things burn while everyone looks the other way.

I don't really understand why it's a bad think to be better educated or informed ...

OP, YANBU, except to express your views on MN. I've never seen so many anti-intellectuals in one place before. Just don't be bringing up any facts because my cousin/brother/pet lizard did the opposite of what scienticians said he turned out fine. I'm entitied to that opinion!!!

I watched the news today, there was an article about the new series of strictly and one about the menace of dog ticks. Might as well have read Take A Break instead.

I don't like Radio 4 and IMO The Guardian comments section could easily be mistaken for the Daily Mail these days, so I rarely read it.That doesn't mean I don't give a horses arse about what's going on in the world!

(Sorry but I get really, really pissed off when people assume that listening to R4 & reading the Guardian means you give more of a shit about the world than someone who doesn't)

Jeremy Kyle is very educational

I don't really understand why it's a bad think to be better educated or informed ...

I honestly don't think there is, there may be a 'hey I'm a bit thick, lol, look at me' scenario, which I think is a masquerade because as pp have pointed out, if the language used is blunt, then it's automatically discarded, there is a policing of language that goes on and an underlying partisan of politics underlying in most of these so called 'intelligent' conversations, it's like the meme of brexit ears of not trusting experts, the more I look into it the more I see that, as every "intelligent" person knows, stats can pretty much deliver the outcome you want it to, many 'intelligent' people will look and disregard certain stats to suit there agenda, but because the term 'we don't trust experts' has been made by the other then it's ridiculed.

There is a lot of 'intelligence' being misrepresented as being preaching and not listening, and I'm just as guilty of it.