to resent accusations of elitism or "looking down" on people in the face of aggressive anti-intellectualism?

[grimupnorthLondon]

I find myself a bit in despair after yesterday's thread on people who "don't watch the news" where a load of posters turned up aggressively declaring that it is their right to focus on their own families and that anyone who tells them otherwise is a snob. I think the UK is now at a stage where a lack of outward-looking curiosity about the world has turned us into a nation of selfish individuals. More dangerously, it has allowed us to drift blindly into the clutches of ruthless multi-nationals and an aggressively right wing government.

Choosing to actively remain ignorant of "depressing news" means many people are barely noticing the deliberate dismantling of the welfare state and the NHS. I fear that when many people who are currently drifting comfortably along hit a life crisis and find that they suddenly need legal aid/housing/mental health care they will be in for a rude awakening.

The education on offer in state schools these days is generally better than it has ever been, but so many parents seem to be colluding with their offspring to treat it with disdain or (at best) something you need in order to get a certificate. Why not support teachers' efforts, read fiction and non-fiction books yourself, have books in your house, use the libraries we still have, surf the net with your kids to teach them about source reliability and bias, volunteer for something you care about, watch films and documentaries and discuss them. Do something with content that isn't just about your daily consumerist concerns!

This isn't about time and money. Lots of these things are free and there are very few people who couldn't replace one reality show a week with something else or retune to Radio 4 on their commute or read a book for half an hour instead of surfing.

It's not just a matter of "pub quiz" trivia or being a grammar pedant either. The more you know, the more connections you will make about cause and effect in the workings of the world and the better able we will all be to make sensible decisions as a nation. You are not just a family member, you are also a citizen!

Calling people out on this is not elitist.

I get what you are saying cat - there are complications everywhere but I think the sensitivity to "class" in this country is a particular problem. I am one of those "first in the family to go to university" people who has moved away from my upbringing and had to find the language to shift between worlds and communicate without being condescending/patronising. A very common story.

Unfortunately I think the left has not helped itself with its obsession with euphemistic language in order to skirt around identity and other issues.

For example, if you talk to people where I grew up about someone's "challenging behaviour" and "failure to co-operate with social services" instead of saying he/she's a "violent alky who scares the crap out of the staff at the Job Centre" it is hard to have a frank and open discussion with them.

I get what you are saying cat - there are complications everywhere but I think the sensitivity to "class" in this country is a particular problem. I am one of those "first in the family to go to university" people who has moved away from my upbringing and had to find the language to shift between worlds and communicate without being condescending/patronising. A very common story.

Unfortunately I think the left has not helped itself with its obsession with euphemistic language in order to skirt around identity and other issues.

For example, if you talk to people where I grew up about someone's "challenging behaviour" and "failure to co-operate with social services" instead of saying he/she's a "violent alky who scares the crap out of the staff at the Job Centre" it is hard to have a frank and open discussion with them.

I've really noticed this since I moved to another country in Europe. People here all read and watch the news, national, local and international. During and post-Brexit, I have been involved in many well-informed conversations with the locals, who were even asking things like my opinion on the different Tory party candidates, naming them by name! I bet 1/100 Brits wouldn't be able to name the heads of the main parties in this major European country.

But worse than that, it really feels like people in the UK revel in their ignorance. If you use a word of more than 3 syllables, they're all like "get you!" Not everyone, obviously, not my peers, but it seems like the prevailing attitude. Like people are embarrassed to be seen to be knowledgeable. People disconnect from politics as they can't be bothered to find out what the hell is going on, then complain that no-one listens to them.

Rock - you have curiosity about the world, which is the most important thing. It's not a case of following all the news - I never "get involved" in stories like children killed in road accidents in so on. It's obviously very sad but I often think the reporting of that kind of thing is sensational, voyeuristic and unnecessary.

That's exactly it n0ne. In France and Germany those conversations are just 'normal'. In the UK they too often inspire defensive reactions - it's as if you've committed a social faux pas by turning the conversation away from trivialities.

Absolutely YANBU
Have to dash out but will come back later

n0ne it's always been a bit like that - kids being bullied at school for being clever for example.

grim it all comes in one big lump including all the voyeuristic sensationalist stuff on the news programmes though. You cannot block your ears, all you you can do is switch off and turn over. Even reading, some newspaper will put out a hideous full colour supplement which is just too much of a bombardment, frankly.

I prefer to think about how I can help people, everyday, practically where I can, the smallest of things can be the most meaningful. I find focussing like this more manageable and rewarding - otherwise I would just silently seethe away feeling disempowered and dispossessed.

grimupnorth it's as if you've committed a social faux pas by turning the conversation away from trivialities.

True. It's a conversational-politics equivalent of putting long table-cloths over things to hide the legs of inanimate objects: and the 'legs'/politics are still there.

All fairly understandable if you think it's just conversation, and you want to rub along fairly peaceably with your work-colleagues, neighbours, and school-gate acquaintances but utterly awful when you think we might sleep-walk into a very real social-political disaster just because 'good manners' prevented you from actually undertaking a discursive intervention in someone's political views/actions.

Very much agree with Grim.
But then I read thecatfromjapan.
Friday afternoon in the library?

The conundrum makes me realise what a powerful tool something like Mumsnet is: it really is a virtual space where you can have these conversations. It's less immediately socially risky than RL but is also capable of real effects.

Yanbu. It is interesting and depressing. In some ways it seems to be akin to the old style 'rotten boroughs' in that certain people or areas have always voted for one political party and will not consider changing so policies are irrelevant.

Many people who take that view (in my Df's family anyway) don't need to be aware of the news because there isn't a decision as such in it for them.

YANBU. I get it.

It really bugs me when it's not even that people are uninformed- it's that they think there's something wrong with you because you are. That having intellectual curiosity is a bit weird and aberrant, and haven't you got better things to do? The kind of person who tells you "you think too much" - That Is Not A Thing!!

GoblinLittleOwl: Friday afternoon in the library?

Nope. Distracting myself as I sit in my bedroom, fretting about ds. Mumsnet is one of the few places I get to talk/think about these things. (Which makes me wonder about the libraries and planets of thought trapped - wasted? - inside women.)

Fresh I often do think too much though. It is a thing. If I watch the news, especially rolling news it fills my head too much with stuff that I don't need to be focussing on. I can dwell on things that I have little control over. If I didn't switch the news off this would be to the detriment of being useful to those around me. Sometimes people do need to stop thinking and just live.

Nicely put thecatfromjapan. Hope your ds is ok.

No, Rockpebblestone. Avoiding certain tragic news stories isn't the same thing as stopping thinking. I accept there is such a thing as "tragedy porn" (the people who are still so obsessed with the McCann story, Princess Diana and similar) but watching the odd episode of Question Time or a Netflix documentary shouldn't do that to you.

YANBU. It's all very well saying you don't watch the news because it's depressing, but the news of what's going on in our country is only going to get more depressing if people don't take any interest in making it better, or at least in showing that the public are watching the actions of those in charge. People who are happy to leave it to 'snobs' to take an interest in the world around them shouldn't expect to be able to moan when their views aren't taken into account.

Thanks, grim.

grim I think of 'news' being in terms news programmes or newspapers - which include the sensationalist and voyeuristic stuff. As I said before, I watch documentaries. I also read voraciously. I tend to like stuff that is quite in depth though, which I will happily research myself. The basics, well you can get the gist, just from being on here or from news bulletins on the radio.

My main point was that not looking at the news does not have to be about anti-intellectualism.

I get what you mean, rock, but I don't think endlessly consuming news counts as "thinking". I mean reflecting, researching, finding meaning, trying to understand the world and the people in it, that sort of thing.

i didn't read the thread about the news, I was thinking (there!) about the broader point of anti intellectualism. Actually, I don't watch the news at all either - I read, listen to podcasts and the radio, and read the papers online. I don't watch much telly at all, and bloody hell doesn't that open a person up to charges of intellectual snobbery!

I'm on the fence, because I don't think being intellectually gifted comes hand in hand with paying attention to world affairs.

However I did see that thread and understand that some of the commentators thought those who speak in an intellectual manner or pay attention to the more depressing side of global affairs are "snobbish".

Honestly I think it's all wrong. I can hold my own educationally as far as I know and sometimes the way in which I type is overly formal and I've been referred to as "thinking I'm better" than others because, god forbid, I dared to use a big word. However I intentionally avoid as much sad news as possible and wouldn't dare pick up a newspaper. I don't trust the vast majority of news "sources", the sheer amount of propaganda pushed through mainstream media is unbelievable. I prefer to do a fair bit of research via unbiased Web sources until I'm comfortable relaying a story that I've read about.

I also have a delicate mind which over-processes information and genuinely can't handle a lot of the really terrible things that happen. A story regarding a pedophile or a child dying in a war-torn country can affect me permanently. I know these things happen every day and would do anything to help if I could but I end up feeling so helpless that it's best to avoid reading about it all together.

I never "get involved" in stories like children killed in road accidents in so on. It's obviously very sad but I often think the reporting of that kind of thing is sensational, voyeuristic and unnecessary

I totally agree with this.

People don't have the experience of seeing what they do making any difference.

DS recently floored me with a very simple question.

What has voting ever done for you ?

Fair point. Because looking back, I have never once voted for the candidate that won or (in a referendum the winning choice). Now, over twice his age, I have to admit - with a heavy heart - that despite trumpeting the mantra "everyone should vote", it's hard to do it with any conviction.

At some level, there is no difference between me (who has voted in every election I am eligible) and somebody who has never voted.

Fresh but the thing is, with me, if I were to watch, I could not do so without thinking. I've gone through this and I did find my head space becoming just too full. I need clarity and focus to function well so I made a decision to not 'consume' because I cannot consume without digesting. Too much and I get indigestion IYSWIM!