to resent accusations of elitism or "looking down" on people in the face of aggressive anti-intellectualism?

[grimupnorthLondon]

I find myself a bit in despair after yesterday's thread on people who "don't watch the news" where a load of posters turned up aggressively declaring that it is their right to focus on their own families and that anyone who tells them otherwise is a snob. I think the UK is now at a stage where a lack of outward-looking curiosity about the world has turned us into a nation of selfish individuals. More dangerously, it has allowed us to drift blindly into the clutches of ruthless multi-nationals and an aggressively right wing government.

Choosing to actively remain ignorant of "depressing news" means many people are barely noticing the deliberate dismantling of the welfare state and the NHS. I fear that when many people who are currently drifting comfortably along hit a life crisis and find that they suddenly need legal aid/housing/mental health care they will be in for a rude awakening.

The education on offer in state schools these days is generally better than it has ever been, but so many parents seem to be colluding with their offspring to treat it with disdain or (at best) something you need in order to get a certificate. Why not support teachers' efforts, read fiction and non-fiction books yourself, have books in your house, use the libraries we still have, surf the net with your kids to teach them about source reliability and bias, volunteer for something you care about, watch films and documentaries and discuss them. Do something with content that isn't just about your daily consumerist concerns!

This isn't about time and money. Lots of these things are free and there are very few people who couldn't replace one reality show a week with something else or retune to Radio 4 on their commute or read a book for half an hour instead of surfing.

It's not just a matter of "pub quiz" trivia or being a grammar pedant either. The more you know, the more connections you will make about cause and effect in the workings of the world and the better able we will all be to make sensible decisions as a nation. You are not just a family member, you are also a citizen!

Calling people out on this is not elitist.

What dismays me is the people who are suffering from Tory austerity who don't understand why it is happening because they have not informed themselves about government policy or its effects.

Poor dolts. Fancy hvg opinions of their own. Ok then. Feel free to pop down my street and tell the poor luvs in social housing that.

Marmite I think you are wilfully missing the point. Where did I object to people having opinions of their own?

Ah grim, getting away from the point of the thread a little bit but you've got to admit that Labour have been pretty damn shit at remembering their traditional core voters over the years. A whole load of my family took massive paycuts when EU membership brought over cheaper workers who could undercut rates and Labour just accused them all of being ignorant bigots for saying something. If the working classes have switched allegiance to the Tories it's because Labour forgot their history and betrayed them.

Of course, it becomes a vicious cycle because most wc people now don't think politics is a place for them, so it becomes filled with mc people with mc agendas who don't understand the wc issues (and yes, sometimes those issues are protectionist and perhaps a tad nationalistic which isn't fantastic) but then that just reinforces to wc people that politics isn't for them and then eventually you get to a point where the Labour party gives more of a stuff about Palestine than it does about Rotherham and who can blame people then for thinking that "there's no point trying, 'cause nothing changes and they don't listen to us".

Totally agree OneFlew. The obsession with "calling out" working class people for using un-PC language while ignoring the real economic effects for some regions of deregulation/migration has been disastrous. And sadly will only get worse under the current 'leadership'.

But as anyone who works in schools or the NHS will tell you how much better 1997-2010 was for public services after the disasters of Thatcherism. Projects like SureStart, extra money to councils in deprived areas for housing, social care etc. and inward investment in rundown regions did something to offset the effect of a global depression in unskilled wages.

Even with the disaster of Iraq, the achievements of New Labour should not be ignored. But it is incredibly difficult to find a way to communicate that - I think the only possible moment was missed when Ed Miliband went along with "there is no alternative to austerity" after the 2010 election. The same global trends of deskilling, low wages and migration are still there - but their effects will be worse for the poorest under the successive Tory governments which I am pretty certain we will now have

YANBU - there is a whole emerging group in society and on MN where being 'intellectual' is some how an insult - also it robs you of your roots as if you are 'intellectual' you have no idea how the 'ordinary' person thinks etc etc (despite being an ordinary person - it gets confusing)

I am working class and northern but that's dismissed by many if you admit the awful truth of having a degree/reading the Guardian/watching the BBC/ voting remain or being in the slightest bit left leaning - very odd way of debating really - dismissing a whole swathe of society

Marmite I think you are wilfully missing the point. Where did I object to people having opinions of their own?

You didn't and I never said you did. You are, however, strongly inferring that it he ignorance of the Precariat stops them from seeing how oppressed they are. I would respectfully suggest that that follows an age old pattern of the left wing intelligentsia, from Virginia Woolf to Tony Benn. Woolf in particular was notorious in her contempt for the WC because they never quite met her lofty revolutionary expectations. My position - take it or leave it (and I suspect you'll do the latter) - is that this attitude at extremis leads to a) right wing populism because eventually the masses get fed up of not being listened to (a la Farage and his 'decent people') or b) left wing populism and then dictatorship.

Anyway, good luck with the literacy campaign.

You know what strikes me about this thread - the amount of people slamming so called anti-intellectuals in posts full of advanced vocabulary and high brow references it is.

So much of politics and academics these days in wrapped up in the trappings of the established intellectual elite that it's inaccessible to those who don't fit it with that elite. There's no plainspoken politics anymore.

The fact is some people just aren't big readers, aren't intellectually inclined and find it pointless trying to get a foothold in a debate that requires a university level education and a broad philosophical background before they can even understand the debates let alone participate.

As my kid brother once pointed out to me while watching debate, the participants seemed less interested in communicating and explaining their points and more in using big words and fancy references to make themselves seem clever.

The flipside, of course, is I see a lot of people who are educated, who do read e.g. the Guardian and follow politics being incredibly dismissive of other people's opinions and will take the fact that someone doesn't know the "correct" terminology and focus on the words they've said rather than the point they're trying to make.

For example, with Brexit my parents were some of those people who were fed up of listening to "experts". Now I'm sure for some people this was a form of anti-intellectualism, but what my parents meant was that they felt that a lot of people with vested interests were skewing statistics to try to influence the debate (which of course was happening on both sides) but they didn't have the terminology to express it.

I think the fear of the ridicule they were subjected to is why a lot of people retreat into the reverse snobbery of disliking intellectualism. It's far safer, when you feel out of your depth, to reject something first than waiting for it to reject you. I think it's a very worrying trend though, and I'm not sure how we reverse it.

I agree Nosy. for example I love NewsNight but it seems to me that the sphere of interest is almost exclusively limited to what readers of the Guardian find interesting. That's fine but it's a public service and should have wider appeal. I'm not asking for Kay Burley (God forbid) but a wider appeal would be welcome. And drop the 'so called' for ISIS please.

nosyupnorth, I agree that the terms of the debate need to be clearer and communication better - that is what OneFlew and others have been saying. But I don't think my initial post was particularly difficult to understand.

I'm from a very working class background myself but when I heard something at school or on TV or read something in a book that I didn't understand, I'd want to find out what it meant. Then I got to university and began to meet other people who were interested in ideas and learned more from discussions with them. Should I be apologising for acquiring more ideas that way?

I think there is a kind of defeatism, or cynicism. People don't have the experience of seeing what they do making any difference

Really, you do realize we have just had the most massive vote agaisnt big business/conglomerates etc etc etc in decades and it came from your working class? The Referendum vote?

oneflew good point it was also a hideous legacy of Blair.

YY nosy - I think that politicians actually aim to confuse far more than they aim to explain. Was there ever a golden era of politicians saying what they meant and not trying to avoid the question or is that just a false nostalgia? It's no wonder people don't engage with politicians when they're full of slippery words that don't tell you anything.

You dont have to be a reader to be intellectual or even know whats going on. we cant have a society of thinkers and academics - society is all of us, and no matter how you frame it, how much you want to put people down, we live in an inclusive society.

That's a very good point OneFlew about people being frightened of ridicule. In my experience, with my very Brexit-y and defensive MIL, the best way to have the discussions was to properly listen to all of her concerns, (politely challenging them when I could show her they were not based in fact, agreeing with her when they were) but then I argued (in a way that didn't imply that she is racist, narrow minded or stupid) that the "solution" Farage/Boris et al were promising would not actually solve the real concerns.

The punchline was that I almost had her convinced, then one of her friends told her that Angela Merkel was like Hitler and wanted a United States of Europe and she voted out. She was pretty upset though two weeks later when her son in law told her his import company was making him redundant.

Sadly the left's best weapon is usually boring logic and that can almost always be outshouted by rightwing propaganda and scaremongering. It seems to me that better education and engagement is the only weapon against that but like you I don't know how we achieve it...

Not saying everyone needs to be an academic justgiveme. Just wish people wouldn't be so aggressive towards people who take an interest in the world.

I do think it's pretty hard to be an intellectual without reading a book though.

Also justgiveme, if people thought the Brexit vote was a blow against big business and conglomerates they were sadly mistaken. Once we are outside the EU we will be able to give generous tax breaks to big businesses and free them from the obligations to give their workers' decent rights that are required under EU law. The government is already making overtures to Apple after the Irish tax case.

Just one example of how people might have voted differently if they had understood the implications....

I agree with much on this thread. But wonder if referencing Bourdieu and Nietzsche without any explanation is the way to get people on board...

Probably not london, but someone brought it up so I responded.

You're totally right but I suppose I am becoming a bit weary about constantly apologising to people for wanting to engage in conversations I find interesting. That's what prompted the thread really. I don't get offended by threads where people write long posts about how diet/housekeeping habits that match my own are disgusting/lazy. All I would ask for is a bit of tolerance for my interests in return.

It has always been this way - the only reason you (wider you) see it now is because of the internet; pre internet you only really knew your peers, workmates & family - external information via news & media.
The Internet gives you a unique access to other people's thoughts, feelings & lifestyles that you wouldn't previously have had (people from different lifestyles, education & class).

Agree with some previous posters that the irony of many posts on this thread is hanging heavy,

In any socioeconomic grouping you will have parochial people and more inquisitive, outward looking people - with money though, comes the luxury of time & resources.

If you're living in an environment which requires you (as a child) to fill your free time with helping out round the house or working after school, weekends & holidays in gash jobs to have some spending money - added to the fact that the people around you aren't pushing you to learn outwith school learning, then if you're not one of those with a thirst for knowledge, betterment and an understanding of 'how the world works' you're probably not going to hold a lot of store in 'knowledge for knowledge's sake'.

It is tedious to see that the 'better educated & informed' are still the same as ever tbh - looking down on those that aren't.
Virtue signalling with faux concern for the 'vulnerable in society', so long as they're the 'right type' of vulnerable.

Perhaps op, but we will also be out of the clutches of Brussles and the thousands of lobbyists there

I am irked at the way you phrase how you politely challenge your MIL, as though people on the remain side are mired in nothing but the truth and the whole truth ( honest gov)

It is tedious to see that the 'better educated & informed' are still the same as ever tbh - looking down on those that aren't

I agree but being better educated doesn't actually go hand in hand with better informed.

I know remainers like to try this tactic on millions who voted but it doesn't wash with me.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-european-parliament-brussels-corporate

From mobile phone charges to nations' interests, these shadowy agitators are estimated to influence 75% of European legislation

Lobbying is such a crucial part of the climate in Brussels that it has spawned manuals, a documentary (Who Really Runs the EU?) and even "the worst lobby awards". Not surprisingly, the biggest movers and shakers agitate for the biggest industries with the most to gain – and lose – from European legislation.

and so on....

grim I think the apologising has to stop. The clue is in your thread title: "aggressive anti-intellectualism".

Recognising that the person you are speaking to is, indeed, making an aggressive attempt at shutting you up by naming you - covertly or overtly - an "intellectual" is an important move in its own right. What right does this person have to try and shut you up? Why are they doing it? Whose interests does it serve to shut you up?

Naming it as an aggressive power-play, forcing it into the open, is an important strategy in its own right.

After that, comes the unpacking of implicit assumptions about the intellectuals and the masses.

Sadly the left's best weapon is usually boring logic

oh just seen this, it gets worse .

Logic and any semblance of it flew out the window with Tony Blair when it comes to the left. What he did to us all was illogical.